Theatre, Performance & Playing at Life

Mary · 0:01
Hey, will, what was your favorite part of today's episode? Speaker 1 0:04 My, I guess my least favorite part was when Tim talked on mukbangs. My favorite part was when Dylan called me out at the end of the episode.

Dylan · 0:13
Oh, my favorite part was the circle of life. Oh,

Reggie · 0:18
my favorite part was all of Mary's theatrics.

Mary · 0:21
Yeah, I would say, oh, thank you. My favorite part was Dylan saying that I was her connection to theater, and now I take that responsibility very seriously,

Dylan · 0:42
I Hi, welcome to Aid. My name is Dylan Garcia. This is Reggie Tim and Mary Green. And today we're going to pull a host, or we're pulling

Mary · 0:53
a host

Dylan · 0:55
topic from the trash can, and we're going to talk about

Reggie · 0:57
it. We already pulled the host.

Mary · 1:00
That's embarrassing.

Tim · 1:02
That's what this is about.

Dylan · 1:03
I know the theater stage.

Tim · 1:08
Oh, this has got to be yours.

Mary · 1:10
This is the merry episode. This

Tim · 1:11
is going to be the merry episode, 100% very history in theater.

Mary · 1:16
I have a degree, and started my career thinking I was going to be a stage manager, and clearly that went super, super well on

Tim · 1:26
a stage now.

Mary · 1:27
Yeah, if they can only see sort of it was one of the things that I think endeared me to you. You were like stage production podcast people talking,

Tim · 1:38
Mary, come into our world,

Mary · 1:40
take this random check and make her make a podcast for us, and notice it's theater R E on the end, because it's

Reggie · 1:48
that's the only way Speaker 2 1:48 to say

Mary · 1:49
it. Yeah,

Tim · 1:50
Theater.

Mary · 1:51
Oh, what are first impressions?

Tim · 1:53
Oh my goodness,

Dylan · 1:54
I didn't know much of theater in my life until you came in, so like everything I know is from you, and you like, hold that image for me, not to put the weight of the world on your

Dylan · 2:04
shoulders,

Mary · 2:04
I carry

Dylan · 2:05
it, just, just to know, just to know,

Mary · 2:08
we got to get you some more theater. Then I know, yeah,

Tim · 2:10
I feel a sense of dread from theater, because my brothers are really good at theater, but I was not

Mary · 2:16
like, did it as an extracurricular,

Tim · 2:18
yes, and they were good at it's the

Mary · 2:23
mask we were talking about this,

Tim · 2:26
yeah. What's the quote? You

Mary · 2:27
got the Franz Kafka.

Tim · 2:28
Yes. Oh,

Reggie · 2:30
that quote. Yeah,

Mary · 2:31
I was embarrassed when I

Tim · 2:33
showed up

Mary · 2:34
at the party.

Reggie · 2:34
No, I thought it was like I didn't know it was a like costume party, and I showed up with my real face

Mary · 2:41
like that,

Tim · 2:42
and it was embarrassed. So, I had an issue showing up as a character, and so theater, although I love it, and I think that all the world's a stage, as Shakespeare said,

Mary · 2:53
everybody's gonna look to me when they say a theater ism, they're like,

Tim · 2:58
wink at me,

Reggie · 2:59
did I do it right?

Tim · 3:01
Yeah, so it's a spot, you know, like, can I get at this type of spot?

Reggie · 3:05
I think the first thing I think of, I have a cousin in New York who is on Broadway, named Rayon Crenshaw.

Mary · 3:12
Just the way it goes with Reggie, she's such

Reggie · 3:15
a

Mary · 3:16
badass.

Reggie · 3:16
She was on one called Chuck, which was this whole corn farm thing that ran for a long while.

Mary · 3:23
McIntyre was advertising for them on tour.

Reggie · 3:25
Oh yeah, that's right.

Mary · 3:26
Yeah,

Reggie · 3:28
Rayon was posting the, yeah, yeah.

Mary · 3:30
Alex and I sometimes will just out of the blue be like, hi, I'm Reba McIntyre, because it just like interrupted a program we were watching, and then it was for the musical shock, and we were like, what is happening anyway?

Reggie · 3:42
Yeah, she she's in another one now, and I forget, I forget what it is. When we were in New York for the AIGA design conference, remember, I had talked about going to see my cousin, that was her, and that was Chuck, that was the end, that was like one of the last two or three areas or productions of it, and so I was like, I need to just have the whole conference experience, and I didn't want to do it. I kind of regret it, but I've always thought that I would do good.

Mary · 4:12
Oh yeah,

Reggie · 4:13
because I am like always doing voices and practical jokes and goofing off, and

Mary · 4:18
you've got big energy, like you can fill a space, and that's a big

Tim · 4:22
Reggie interview.

Mary · 4:23
It is a presence thing. Can you hold a room? Speaker 2 4:30 Six

Reggie · 4:30
to 216

Mary · 4:32
times.

Reggie · 4:32
Yeah,

Dylan · 4:33
I never knew that.

Mary · 4:33
No big deal or anything.

Reggie · 4:35
Six to 216

Tim · 4:36
walks into a room.

Mary · 4:39
Oh man, yeah. Theater for me is like, like a past life. It feels like when I talk about it. And recently, I don't know if anybody heard that Timothy Chalamet interview, where he was like, I like being in my career because I wouldn't want to be in like ballet or something. He's talking about fine arts as like a dead language, pretty much, and I feel so. Sometimes, like, theater is becoming this really weird niche thing, especially like musical theater is attracting a certain personality type, and I think we kind of like get a bad rap, and then there's like the theater kid like name that goes with the label, which, if you didn't realize, like, totally me, but yeah, I just think it's like it's like the school of life for me.

Mary · 5:26
It's like, remember when we were trying to devise like this podcast concept, and I was like, it's improv, like there's like some essentials of improv. Oh,

Reggie · 5:34
totally, we actually talked about using some improv tactics to like stay in a particular section,

Mary · 5:41
segment, yeah, so I like the idea of it's a safe place to play, and I'm like really enamored with this idea of like it probably was never as good as I imagine it to be, but like troops who would tour and they become your family, and like you trust these people, that's like

Tim · 6:00
a community,

Reggie · 6:00
I Speaker 2 6:00 love that.

Mary · 6:01
Like, you have to, you're going through it on stage. It's like we are gonna make this happen. You just gotta like lock eyes, like I got you no matter what. So, there's something.

Tim · 6:13
Gary Vee just said something recently. He said, in 24 months or 48 months, 24 to 48 months, maybe

Reggie · 6:21
it's suck at what we I

Tim · 6:25
watched this. My, I didn't hear about this on social media. I watched this with my own two eyes. He said that we will, people will no longer believe anything they see online, anything seen on a on a video on YouTube, all of it's gonna be AI. So, I wonder if theater is the return of not only a community that

Mary · 6:46
is

Tim · 6:46
in the background, but to experience that level of human performance, or that level of human.. I think for me, I was always watching theater, and I would love to watch the ones who could just lose themselves in Speaker 2 7:00 it,

Tim · 7:01
and even things would go off script, and you knew things were way off the mark. They would just keep going with this sense of confidence and risk that to me felt like more like life. Speaker 2 7:14 Yeah,

Reggie · 7:15
some people probably didn't even know they were off,

Tim · 7:17
right? And there's something unscripted about it, which this is unscripted, but in front of people with people in on a team or a community with an audience, it just felt like a very magical experience. And I think that's coming back.

Reggie · 7:30
I do, and I find myself I always have loved going to plays. My grandmother used to take me when I was a kid, I went to see the Oz, which was like, or the wiz, yeah, which was like, yeah, yeah, yeah,

Mary · 7:44
yeah. Saw

Reggie · 7:45
that when I was a kid. I saw actually one called, was it Fences? It had

Mary · 7:54
strictly, yeah.

Reggie · 7:55
Saw that when I was a kid. She was really good at, like, showing me these experiences, though, not a lot of kids that were my age were getting to take part in.

Tim · 8:06
Yeah,

Reggie · 8:06
and it really gave me a love. There's something about being in an audience, or something about seeing real people on a stage, or not looking at a screen, you can't pause it, you're really in the moment, and however it plays out is how it plays out,

Tim · 8:19
right?

Reggie · 8:19
It's so beautiful, and I'd like to go. I'd like to start going back. I was just telling Paris, I picked up the program for Wortham. I was like, "Oh my god, there's some really great stuff coming up. Like, we should go

Tim · 8:33
check. Worth them is a theater in Asheville that puts on some incredible performance.

Reggie · 8:38
Worth them center, and they are.. yes, it's a great venue. They have some really great productions coming up, and they do a lot of dance and stuff too, like a lot of dance and performative

Mary · 8:47
theater. Yeah, Stuart

Reggie · 8:50
Owens, they're so good. They actually did a performance for the most recent TEDx,

Mary · 8:56
right? They were there, buddy buddy with Barry Barton,

Reggie · 9:00
which makes sense. She does. That's right.

Mary · 9:02
We've been looking, Vanessa and Gavin. I got it. Oh yeah, and I have been talking about, like, oh, is there one that I could stage manage, but like trying to fit it in the margins is hard. I'll tell you, I walked into the Worth of them when I stage managed TEDx in 2024 and I walked backstage to, like, get oriented and stuff, and I, this is kind of dramatic on the topic of theater. I almost cried, I was like, oh, because it's a, like, a, I won't say world-class, but very high-quality theater, and they've got like the line sets with the weight bridge, do all of the actual like craft stuff, whereas I had spent so much time, even in New York, because I was not on Broadway, I was in like little black boxes, and like, yeah, you go to Asheville Community Theater, is also a really cool venue,

Reggie · 9:49
really is,

Mary · 9:49
but different space, right, like catwalk, and like set rep plot, and I've done a lot of things, several things in the basement of Asheville Community Theater, which is. Very tiny black hawk.

Reggie · 10:01
I've never actually seen.

Mary · 10:02
I think they call it.. I can't remember the name of it. It's like Studio 54 or something, which is like.. it's.. it's a riff on Speaker 2 10:11 the old..

Mary · 10:12
the New York..

Reggie · 10:13
the New York version..

Mary · 10:16
that's completely made up. I don't know, but

Tim · 10:18
do you know, like, when.. when you were, when I was young, someone told me that football player, this football player practiced ballet,

Mary · 10:27
right? Oh,

Tim · 10:27
yeah, it was Lance Swan, right? To me, I was like, why would he do that? Like, ballet doesn't make sense.

Mary · 10:33
and then you learned

Tim · 10:34
I learned. So I'm wondering now, if the new one is, what if a practice for life is to practice theater?

Reggie · 10:41
I see that I could see that,

Tim · 10:43
because there is an element of acting.

Reggie · 10:45
It's all performative,

Tim · 10:47
right? And I know that we want to.. well, some want to. I've been wrestling with this too, like some want to perform to protect their personal life. So they act the part, and they do the thing, and they go to work, and they live, and then they come home, and they take off the costume, and they're with their people. I live a different way. I want to live in the world like I'm with my people, but either way, there's something about the practice of theater, the practice of saying lines exuding confidence or emotion

Mary · 11:18
that I

Tim · 11:18
think would be really beneficial to life.

Dylan · 11:21
I agree. I think, yeah, there's like this, like, double, there's a double mask scenario, or whatever quote they always say, with like wearing the different lives, wearing the different mask theater, because the only thing I know about theater is through Mary, but you get to play these people, and you get to like hone their, like, the greatest actors are like the greatest theater people can really hone into the character and make you feel like they are the character.

Tim · 11:46
So, you didn't go, you didn't see any theater when you were young.

Dylan · 11:49
That's all. Shrek, the musical,

Mary · 11:50
I mean,

Reggie · 11:51
she's from that would be a cool one.

Dylan · 11:53
No, there

Tim · 11:53
is there a theater in Franklin?

Dylan · 11:54
No, there's no theater,

Reggie · 11:57
little small,

Mary · 11:59
like student production. We

Dylan · 12:00
had like a Hercules live play with like our, and like I was doing, I think I had a track meet or something, and I really hate to miss it because all my friends were in it.

Mary · 12:09
Girl, it was always like you could do one or the other. Yeah,

Dylan · 12:12
but we went to go see Shrek the Musical one, and that was

Tim · 12:17
so cool.

Tim · 12:18
Don't let anyone trash your experience.

Dylan · 12:20
That was, that was amazing.

Mary · 12:22
I would love to trash your experience. The

Dylan · 12:28
other one, so there's two live ones that I remember, and this is probably like the worst two to even say was Shrek the Musical. And then when you went to Disney World, yeah, the Muppets like I loved the Muppets, but like we were sitting there and they would like come and you could just like see these people like being them, and it was so cool. So like I have no hate on theater, I just wish I wasn't like immersed more, but that's why you're in my life. We're gonna,

Reggie · 12:57
that's right,

Dylan · 12:57
and that's why

Reggie · 12:58
you have a big dose

Dylan · 12:59
of Mary every Speaker 2 12:59 day.

Dylan · 13:00
Yeah, exactly. Now you can show it on my Shrek experience,

Mary · 13:05
not at all. It's just that I think Alex and I, both my partner Alex, has a get this, a master's degree in musical theater writing,

Mary · 13:13
only

Mary · 13:14
one of those programs, or in 2016 there was only one of those programs in the world,

Tim · 13:18
and only one attendee, Speaker 2 13:19 and if

Mary · 13:22
you can believe it, I think he was cycle 25 which is like the 25th class

Tim · 13:26
through

Mary · 13:27
it, and it reminds me there's a guy that was in his program that I'll bet you're two degrees removed from, his name is Lee Summers, and we need to find him, but you're just talking about the ways, yeah, definitely new people in those casts, yeah, but yeah, we both, so we wax poetic a lot about theater, and we are pretty harsh critics, I would say, which is sort of pointless, because we're not making anything anymore, and I feel like if you're not brave enough to, or creative enough to make something, you don't get to just come in and tear other people's ideas,

Tim · 13:57
yeah, that's true,

Mary · 13:58
I mean, like, well, no,

Tim · 13:59
no, I think that there's a, there's a point at which there's grace for people who only have one option.

Reggie · 14:04
Yeah,

Tim · 14:05
but there's also nothing to trash about taste.

Mary · 14:08
Oh, no,

Tim · 14:11
no, no, no, no, even trash about having taste. Yeah, you know, like just because you know what you like, and you could also probably.. I was seeing that you want to scooter a little bit, you're in the tree. you're in the tree,

Mary · 14:23
that was bad podcasting. I interrupted you.

Tim · 14:25
No, it's okay. I was just.. I was just gonna say that sometimes we trash people who have a, an idea of what they like. Speaker 2 14:32 Yeah,

Tim · 14:32
you know, like I like a certain wine, or I like a certain car, or I like

Dylan · 14:35
a certain color,

Tim · 14:36
and like we.. yeah, or color, yes. And so we. we like call them stuck up, or, but I think that there's, it's okay to like something, and it's okay to like a really high-end version of something, or a very lowbrow

Mary · 14:49
version of their space for all of that, and that's, I think, the reason we get, the reason that I said something about Shrek is, we're kind of tired of movies getting a. Adapted to the stage Speaker 2 15:01 story, but that's happening even

Tim · 15:06
in movies,

Mary · 15:07
like the version, right?

Tim · 15:09
Yeah, so I was going to ask, interesting, interesting, you brought this up, I was going to ask, when does theater become what is it, TV Speaker 2 15:20 or, or

Tim · 15:21
whatever, is that, that is movies, because I think that mr. Rogers was a little bit like theater, even though it was being filmed, mr. Rogers, it was like an acting like a puppet, it totally

Reggie · 15:33
did feel very like stage-like, it was

Tim · 15:36
live, right, it felt very theater divides were that that feeling of warmth from theater.

Mary · 15:44
Well, and I get a similar.. I will say there's two other things I'll put in the rotation here, and I want to hear if you all think this is theater or not. One that I think is very obviously theater is they.. they would film these like the sound of Musik Speaker 2 15:57 live, they

Mary · 15:58
cast Jeff Goldblum in the. whatever. I don't think they did those while, and that was interesting, because they did like a three-dimensional set, and they had cameras like going around it, but it still, it kind of felt like TV to me. I was like, oh, I could see

Reggie · 16:11
that, yeah,

Mary · 16:12
it's different feeling. And then the other one that comes up is like SNL,

Reggie · 16:16
SNL, very much,

Tim · 16:18
yeah, because they're doing it live,

Mary · 16:19
yeah,

Tim · 16:19
right,

Mary · 16:19
they're doing it by the way. I have friends who, that was for a while, the dream was to go be a carpenter, like a set design person on SNL, because what we don't see is because they're doing it live, the set changes are crazy, they're like written stuff down and rebuilding it in like three minutes,

Reggie · 16:36
like that's the kind of thing I have always dreamed when I was younger that I would want to do, I would want to do SNL or member in Living Color, like I would want to be on a show like that, where I could actually just be a total goofball and like totally improvise, and just, you know, I love that energy. I don't know that I'd ever want to do like serious theater, you know. So, you know, I'm the doctor.

Tim · 17:01
Sorry to say, your son in comedy usually go to serious, you know, like Jim Carrey went, and then he went into, like, Eternal Sunshine, as well as mine. Yeah, some other intense ones.

Reggie · 17:12
That's true. And I love that. That was really good

Mary · 17:14
inhabit that feeling, and you can't be on the highs all the time. I think it's

Reggie · 17:19
Robin Williams did the same.

Mary · 17:20
Oh, yeah,

Reggie · 17:21
yeah, right. With what dreams may come, right? He was like funny, funny, funny, and then really beautiful and serious. I miss him, I do too. He was, he was, yeah. We didn't deserve him,

Tim · 17:32
right? So we're like, you know, we're like in the era Robin Williams was in an era before everyone was tearing down and revealing what's really happening behind the scenes, so he was really

Reggie · 17:45
the

Tim · 17:45
really good at the facade, and no one knew he was struggling behind the scenes, except people that really were close to him and loved him. But now you see shows like The Hacks, where they, and shows where they show the intensity that lives behind the scenes to

Reggie · 18:00
happen, like we need to normalize mental health and let people see that everybody is struggling with the

Mary · 18:06
industry.

Reggie · 18:08
Yes, normalize

Tim · 18:11
that people suffer, and this drives me crazy. My son

Reggie · 18:15
suffrages,

Tim · 18:16
and my daughter are at the age where they're watching things and imagining it's just the way they're seeing

Reggie · 18:21
it, yeah,

Tim · 18:22
like this is easy to do this,

Tim · 18:24
yeah, this is

Tim · 18:24
quick, you can do this in three seconds, and this is every almost every video on YouTube is like how you do everything fast and easy and successful and quick, and I try to tell them there is so much suffering that goes into creating things,

Reggie · 18:38
yeah,

Tim · 18:38
there's an intent,

Mary · 18:40
you're a really fun dad.

Reggie · 18:43
Everything sucks.

Tim · 18:44
I started out funny, and now I'm getting to my serious era.

Mary · 18:48
They're suffering and everything

Tim · 18:50
to know you walking in on something that cost you something.

Reggie · 18:53
Yeah,

Tim · 18:54
so like when you're

Reggie · 18:54
as easy as they make it look right,

Tim · 18:56
when you're convinced, and people do this all the time, and this is what life's about. This is what running an agency is about, do all the hard work, but make it look easy.

Reggie · 19:04
Yeah, and the other thing to that same point, to piggyback on what you're saying, is having a now grown woman, but who was once a teenage daughter, who is now a model, but also wanting to go into that world, like she wants to use modeling as her jumping off for acting, and so I'm actually trying to encourage her to do some local plays, so she can get her acting

Tim · 19:25
about that. She feels about that. I want her to do theater, I will. Okay, but

Reggie · 19:29
here's the other thing, but the thing that that made me think about this was that on, like, on social media everybody puts up this facade, everybody's like, "Oh, my life is perfect, everything is great, and she would be seeing this and seeing these women, and they look so flawless and perfect, and it would give her this like self-image thing, where she's like, well, look at them, they look so perfect. I'm like, I guarantee you that is not there every day, this is your

Mary · 19:57
eight hours, and they

Reggie · 19:58
totally, yeah, and. She'd be like, well, they're not wearing makeup, like they are 100% and so, yeah, it's this, the, you know, our whole world is built on these like fake facades, and I'd love to see the whole wall come down,

Mary · 20:14
but

Tim · 20:15
would it be entertaining?

Reggie · 20:16
Yes,

Mary · 20:17
the

Tim · 20:17
facade, it

Reggie · 20:18
would definitely be entertaining,

Tim · 20:20
right? Like, what? So, would it be fun to watch someone suffer,

Reggie · 20:23
not suffer so much as to see the real Speaker 1 20:27 them?

Reggie · 20:29
But you know what? Yeah, the pit is suffering. But you know the other thing, when I see like a post of somebody who's going through real human experience and they're sharing it, you know, and there's someone who's like always like glitz and glam, but like you know, guys, I just had a really shit day, and this thing happened to me, and this is going on, I feel way more endeared to them because I'm like they're showing that they're real, like that to me is admirable, and it's what we need more of, and that totally lights me up, so yeah, I would totally be

Tim · 21:01
what if showing your real trends,

Reggie · 21:04
yeah,

Tim · 21:08
what if they're actually they're real.

Reggie · 21:12
Let's start that, showing you're real, and we just cry on set.

Tim · 21:16
That

Reggie · 21:20
was so good, showing you're real

Tim · 21:22
good, and just naturally good, keep going. No, I'm saying, what if people start acting like they're real?

Mary · 21:31
They already are, that's what I'm

Tim · 21:32
saying. They already are. Yeah, what you're seeing may not even be real.

Dylan · 21:36
Yeah.

Reggie · 21:36
Oh no, these are these ones have been.

Mary · 21:39
Is

Tim · 21:41
he a product of his age.

Reggie · 21:42
I've got a really good bullshit meter

Tim · 21:45
through YouTube,

Reggie · 21:46
no, through life.

Tim · 21:48
These people,

Reggie · 21:50
yes, these are people

Tim · 21:51
watching, like Facebook or something. I think you're watching a YouTube video.

Reggie · 21:54
No, no, the Instagram, but that's

Tim · 21:57
local.

Reggie · 21:58
These people are not actual actors, like they are to some degree, Speaker 2 22:02 I would

Tim · 22:02
say everyone on social media is an actor.

Reggie · 22:04
Yeah, but I can see through unless they are the best actors ever.

Tim · 22:08
We need a test. How does Reggie see through this?

Reggie · 22:11
Just like I can spot AI, I'm still probably that best AI detector on the planet. I see all these comments like, "Oh my god, can't believe the guy like escaped that allocator. I'm like, "Oh my god, how do you believe this is real?

Tim · 22:22
Are you spotting it because it's outrageous? Because AI is going to get to the nuance,

Reggie · 22:26
it's already getting to the nuance. The other day, that.. that I was like, that's totally AI. If you watch it and you just look at how things move, people's responses and actions.. now I'm not saying it may not get to the point where it's like almost imperceivable, but all right. Speaker 2 22:43 Well,

Reggie · 22:43
here I can still deter.

Tim · 22:44
So, I'll back up why I'm confronting you on this, because I saw a guy, or I saw a story about an influencer I'm not gonna say his name, but people probably already know him. Anyway, he started for

Mary · 22:56
protection. We already

Reggie · 22:57
know

Tim · 22:58
I have to protect this guy. Anyway, he started out just playing his violin and making shakes, that was his channel, like green shakes, healthy shakes, like to eat

Reggie · 23:09
while playing a violin,

Tim · 23:10
not while playing, but

Reggie · 23:11
I was gonna say really damn crack egg,

Tim · 23:16
maybe had guidance on how to build an intersectional brand, but no one was watching them, obviously, because that's, you know, Speaker 2 23:24 that's

Reggie · 23:24
boring,

Tim · 23:25
yeah, so the guy does a mukbang, good barometer of age, you don't want to muck bang, I call my wife, she's like

Mary · 23:37
freaks me

Reggie · 23:37
out,

Tim · 23:38
it comes from Korea, where they were a ton of food on while they're chatting with the camera, they just eat literally like 20,000 calories

Mary · 23:49
of people doing, yeah, like

Tim · 23:52
just watching, and 50,000 people watched it in like three days,

Reggie · 23:56
because they wanted to see them suffer, right? See, yeah, people do like

Tim · 24:00
suffer, right, a little bit, yeah. This was probably getting into, yeah, but what it showed him was that people wanted to see him do that, so he became a mukbang influencer and started eating tons. By they traced his path through, like, I think six years, and he gained over 200 pounds.

Reggie · 24:19
Holy

Tim · 24:21
eating, wow, eating bags of Burger King, like he wasn't worth the likes. Well, that's what I'm saying, but he, it's addictive Speaker 2 24:28 to

Tim · 24:29
find something that someone affirms and invalidates

Reggie · 24:33
once they affirm it, and then you're like, oh, I need to do more of

Tim · 24:36
this algorithmic training to where it trains you, like this is what people want to see from me. They don't want to see me learn the violin, they don't want to see me make heli shakes, they want to see me stuff myself. And then he got so depressed, he started cracking.

Reggie · 24:49
I was just gonna say that's not sustainable.

Tim · 24:51
No, he started literally having these outbreaks, and he was crying on Instagram, and people watched even more, millions of views. They're watching his demise. They're watching him.

Reggie · 25:02
Do you think he was acting, or do you think

Mary · 25:04
I don't

Tim · 25:04
know? I mean, he already pushed himself into Mukbang to the extent. Maybe he's like, maybe he is acting. I don't

Mary · 25:11
know how to

Reggie · 25:12
push myself into

Tim · 25:13
Mukbang, but I'll tell you this. Anyone out there who thinks they're able to be real online, try and make a video, try to be real, make a video, and try to be real. It is insanely hard to be authentic while a camera is watching, or while other people are watching, just like in life, like you walk into a virtual audience, right? Yeah, but even in life, walk anywhere, walk up to Will. You've never met Will, our guy running everything behind the scenes, endearing.

Mary · 25:41
I don't think he's a good example for

Tim · 25:42
this. That's true. He's, but any people

Mary · 25:44
have an easy time being real with Will,

Tim · 25:46
but the social anxiety about meeting someone, about being in front of somebody's

Reggie · 25:50
realness.

Tim · 25:50
Try to be real in front of somebody, or a camera, or anything. It's really, really hard. Yeah.

Mary · 25:54
Well,

Mary · 25:55
that's.. I

Mary · 25:56
think.. well, I had one already, but I think this is another thing that drives me crazy. I'll give a story, because it illustrates, and it's really dumb, but I, until I was probably late high, that was dramatic. I thought that I was gonna be an actor, like that was the path that I was on. I

Reggie · 26:14
could see Speaker 2 26:14 that,

Mary · 26:14
and I received a lot of praise for it. It was like a thing that was very validating to me, because people were telling me I was good at it, especially at a young age, and all this stuff. So, I got into college and ended up not getting cast in a couple of things that I tried to go out for, because, well, they're exactly..

Tim · 26:31
they didn't really see

Mary · 26:33
if they'd known who I really was, but I think, well, one, they just had kids who had had access to different levels of training and whatever, which was a hard wake-up connection, connections, but more so just like less fear about the process, longer

Tim · 26:48
time in

Mary · 26:49
the better teachers, not better, as in better quality, but just access to more teachers and better programs. Anyway, so didn't get cast in some things, ended up realizing, like, I don't want my whole life to be audition after audition after audition, and then feeling bad about myself after the audition. So I was like, I'll go into a technical side where it's like, how smart am I, how can I figure it out, which is much more Mary's way of navigating life. But I recently, after moving to Asheville, Alex and I were like, we should get back into theater, like, I've done that in a while. We met during the show, but we went out for a staged reading, and we ended up doing it together, and it was a dramatic play based on Hitchcock Cox.

Tim · 27:34
Albert Hitchcock Cox,

Mary · 27:36
Alfred, Albert,

Reggie · 27:38
Alfred Hitchcock,

Mary · 27:40
Alfred Hitchcock, I love

Tim · 27:41
the every episode. I'll be happy if you see the edit in the last one, where we'll put the word you were saying. What was the

Dylan · 27:47
word?

Tim · 27:48
Was awesome.

Mary · 27:49
That's great. No, keep that in

Reggie · 27:53
hilarious.

Mary · 27:54
It was based on Hitchcock's The Birds, weird thing to be doing as a staged reading, because you're like carrying a script around anyway, and my director, he's actually like a really lovely, fun person that I want to be better friends with in real life. Yeah, but I realized, like, half or two thirds the way through that very short rehearsal process that, like, I really wanted yes from him, I really wanted validation from him. I needed him to tell me that I was good and that I was doing it the way that he wanted, and I felt like other people were getting that, and I wasn't.

Reggie · 28:29
Oh, like he was your daddy. Like,

Mary · 28:33
honestly, though, like it does.

Reggie · 28:35
We all have that relationship with our father. We want

Mary · 28:39
to, yeah. I

Reggie · 28:39
don't know why it's always the dad. Why are we not like

Mary · 28:42
it? Could be anybody, honestly.

Reggie · 28:45
I suppose my kids are always trying to like my wife showers them with love, and I do too. But for whatever reason, they're always like trying to

Mary · 28:59
like see, like they're

Tim · 29:00
shower them with love when they do well,

Reggie · 29:02
yeah. And I shower them. Oh, I shower them with love. We just broke a generational

Dylan · 29:08
curve.

Reggie · 29:10
I always shower my kids with love, but I do think there's something about

Tim · 29:15
the father,

Reggie · 29:15
the father, like wanting dad's approval, like my son and daughters, when I am like disappointed, or even if I can just tell them and give them praise all the time, whether they're doing good or not, like even like I let them know how proud I am in them, but the one moment I'm like even remotely disappointed because they did something, it's like their whole world crumbles down, but when my wife does it, they're just like they go right back to her, they're hanging out

Tim · 29:43
right, because the mother's love is a different thing.

Reggie · 29:47
It's a different thing. It's like this, it's a maternal thing that we just don't have. And

Tim · 29:53
what happened with this?

Reggie · 29:54
Yeah, what ended up happening with the director?

Mary · 29:56
I got done with the show, and I was,

Reggie · 29:59
did you do the show? You guys got cast,

Mary · 30:00
oh yeah, and we, it was a three nights, you're carrying your script around,

Reggie · 30:04
yeah,

Mary · 30:05
but I just remembered the whole time feeling so insecure, which is hilarious to me, given that, like, this is low budget black box carrying a script around, it's also not that this makes it any worse of a theater experience, but like, as someone who's got a degree and like recently came out of the industry, he

Tim · 30:24
felt demoted. A

Mary · 30:25
bunch of older people, so I'm like, I should be able to feel really confident in this room, and for some reason I didn't, and I like would walk out of some of those rehearsals literally wanting to cry, Speaker 2 30:36 which

Mary · 30:37
was, and I was sitting in my car, and I'm like, why is this so impactful to me, and I think this is one of the things that drives me crazy, is it is an industry. If we're going to look at it as a paid thing, it's a craft that, like, sort of begs you to become emotionally entangled with other people. Oh, my, yes, yes, few people have the training and the sense of boundaries and the sense of self and personal identity beyond the mass, beyond the performance, to wrangle

Tim · 31:05
with that,

Reggie · 31:06
to not blur those lines.

Mary · 31:07
There's a lot of, I mean, the film industry is riddled with it, but theater as well. It's just like a lot of messy relationships, and people like catering to other people's egos, and there's a lot of just emotional bullshit around like the true work of the art,

Tim · 31:24
so what do you, what do you think in your heart would be what you would have to do to be successful in that situation

Mary · 31:29
as an actor?

Tim · 31:30
Yeah, like knowing that as a revelation, if you were to say, if Mary could do this, I would succeed, would it be to like become more calloused on the outside to where nothing affects you, or did we become more closer to the reality of who you are in that situation?

Mary · 31:46
I think it's something like a stronger point of view, and I mean, I'm a big fan of developing relationship outside of the rehearsal room. Alex sometimes talks about, like, making deposits, so that when you need to make withdrawals, you've got like collateral, I think, like

Tim · 32:05
a sense of identity,

Mary · 32:06
a sense of identity, but also a sense of this is my project, I'm not a mere pawn in your project director or whoever else, I'm an artist, and this is what I'm bringing, versus I think a lot of directors want you to feel like a human set piece that they're moving around. Do you ever feel that way

Tim · 32:24
here at this agency?

Reggie · 32:35
Dylan, would you ever go into theater? I think you could be having heard only Mary's experience. What would you ever be drawn to? Well,

Mary · 32:47
you're you have this relationship with performance.

Reggie · 32:49
Yeah,

Dylan · 32:49
like I was like listening to you, and I was like, oh, I've felt this before. You felt

Reggie · 32:55
this before in sports

Dylan · 32:56
with your

Reggie · 32:57
coach. Absolutely, I did the same thing with my, my high school basketball coach, he was like a dad, and I was like always trying to like

Tim · 33:06
that as a stage.

Reggie · 33:06
Oh, absolutely. Speaker 2 33:08 Well,

Dylan · 33:08
it is a stage, because for me, especially when I started like becoming like kind of known when I showed up to meets and stuff, it was like she

Mary · 33:16
pretty much went pro and then backed out of it, and

Dylan · 33:18
so it was like a performance of like how I looked day before, and it was a performance of like quite literally it was a performance, because if I didn't do well, oh my gosh, it was so bad, but I had this

Mary · 33:37
two steps

Reggie · 33:42
back, yeah.

Mary · 33:42
yeah,

Reggie · 33:43
I just want to, so yeah, it's performative,

Dylan · 33:46
no, yeah, I had, I had a really hard relationship with performance, especially with like one of my coaches, and then also just like in my life, just like home life as well,

Tim · 33:57
if you didn't perform well, was that inside of yourself or with your coaches,

Dylan · 34:02
it was a little bit mix of both, because, like, college, you're like paid to perform well, like when I, yeah, when I would go on the national stage and I'd bring home an All-American, that meant the college got more money to do this later down the road, and I didn't, I shouldn't have found that out, but I did find that out, and so, like, there was that kind of scenario. There's also internally the validation, all that kind of stuff. And so I do relate to the theater in this kind of like performative way. I'm trying to react that and like trying to be more of like, hey, no, I'm a human, I will fail. And it's like, how do I fail? Well, in order to like get back up and like be like, yeah, my own. Okay,

Mary · 34:40
yeah. Become a professional failer, and yeah,

Reggie · 34:44
fail Speaker 2 34:44 fast.

Mary · 34:44
I'm reading this book, and I'm gonna bring it in, and I'm.. I might force each of you to read it. We should.. it's like

Tim · 34:50
I like being forced to do

Mary · 34:51
stuff. Yeah, I know.

Mary · 34:54
It's.. it's a brain bender. It's called What is post for. Branding, I think, is another name that I've gotten wrong, but the, it's basically the first chapter of the book is essentially like a 20 point manifesto about what's wrong with branding today. Cool, and I agree with pretty much every single word of it. Wow. And then the second chapter is just a series of like graphic art and reference imagery that are related to the first chapter, and so it takes you on like the history of brand all the way back to like Greek and Roman times. It takes you through just everything, yeah, and like all the branding of cattle, the branding of humans, the branding of the Nazi party, the branding of Coca Cola, like all of these things, just visually takes you on a journey. And then the third chapter, which I haven't started yet, but I saw the summary, is like, okay, what do we do now? Yeah, book in a manual, but one of the things that I felt really seen in when I read it, and like, if you'll ask Alex, and he'll be like, yeah, she really likes that book, I'll finish a chapter, and I'll be like these people. I feel like I found peers, you know. It's like, oh, these are my people.

Reggie · 36:08
Bring it in. Speaker 2 36:09 That's

Reggie · 36:09
awesome. Maybe we should try to meet the authors,

Mary · 36:12
do a little book club moment, but they, they talk about performance and about how creativity under the umbrella of capitalism has become it's not about an authentic experience, it's not about being human, it's performative, it's about output and performance, and I think it's interesting when we, the word performance, people always assume when you say it, it's got the connotation of like I'm intentionally putting on an act to pretend to do something for you, but I think the other side of performance is to do something well, Speaker 2 36:44 to do

Mary · 36:45
something to a certain standard or to spec kind of thing, and that's something that we have to do in agency life every day, when we're with clients, we have to perform at a certain level to feel valid, to actually make the money that we need to make, right.

Tim · 37:02
So, here's what I would say. Then,

Mary · 37:03
yeah,

Tim · 37:04
that is performance. I agree, like, you get a performance review.

Mary · 37:07
Yeah,

Tim · 37:07
see if you're doing well. What if you're performing something you don't want to do? That's the.. I think that's the.. where the theater aspect.. not that you don't want to do theater, but imagine being stuck in a role,

Mary · 37:19
yeah,

Tim · 37:19
like on a play that you hated, but you had to do that for the rest of your life.

Mary · 37:23
Yeah,

Tim · 37:25
and this happens to actors who get stuck in a.. and maybe that's why these comedians go in a serious mode, they get typecast. Yeah, so what if you're at work and you get type cast?

Mary · 37:33
I think we all do. I like.. I'll give you my typecast. People meet me and they're like, "Mary's just a ball of energy. Mary, like, loves to

Tim · 37:41
like, red headed energy, like

Mary · 37:43
you're either a slut or you're like some sort of manic pixie something, but I, if you're

Tim · 37:48
that's a deep subject,

Mary · 37:49
put red heads in the trash.

Tim · 37:50
Yes,

Mary · 37:51
I think that, so people with me, and they're like, oh, Mary's got a lot of energy, she loves pushing things along, she likes following up, she likes dotting her eyes and crossing your t's. Let's be a redhead, but I think that the issue is I don't actually love doing those things, but those are things that I have to do if I'm going to achieve the end that I want. So, like, I have been trained to perform in that way, because people keep casting me in that role, because I'm clearly able to perform, you've gotten

Reggie · 38:24
really good at it, because you've done it so much,

Mary · 38:26
but it's actually, but it's

Reggie · 38:27
not that you want it, right? It's

Tim · 38:28
exhausting. So, Speaker 2 38:29 yeah,

Tim · 38:30
what would it take to take yourself out of that role to not do it?

Mary · 38:34
Yeah,

Tim · 38:34
and then, but then you don't get what you want, right? You started doing it to get what you want,

Mary · 38:38
you gotta start auditioning for other things, and get told no, and fail professionally for a while,

Reggie · 38:42
or you find someone else to do all the, that is another thing.

Mary · 38:45
I mean, that's not an option in a casting scenario, like somebody else gets to decide. Can

Tim · 38:51
you play the main role for me? I'm gonna just gonna do this other thing.

Reggie · 38:53
Yeah,

Mary · 38:55
well, I mean, an understudy is a nice thing to

Tim · 38:57
have. I think there's a meta layer to this, as I commonly say, that to be to naturally perform well, that's what everyone always says. You just have to be good at it, or be better, practice, get better. But there's like a performance to doing something naturally. There's not like so everyone wants to do to be themselves, to live the life they feel inside them who they are, who they're meant to be. They want to be what they're born to be. They feel a drawing toward it. It's like they're.. it's not.. it's like their fate, but there's like this.. this other influence working on us in digital media, in the success metrics, where we are trying to do something that other people will want to have, or to watch, they're entertained by it, or their goals are satisfied by it. So we're trying to fit us into that, but in a way that's natural, because if you're not a natural at your job, no one's gonna be like, yes, come and do this, you're not a natural,

Reggie · 39:55
right?

Tim · 39:56
I'm just being authentic, I don't care,

Reggie · 39:58
yeah, right,

Tim · 39:58
you're being authentic, no. One really cares that anyone's being authentic, they just care that they can act like they're authentic and really good at something.

Mary · 40:05
Can I.. I'm gonna like sprinkle fairy dust on that, and say, Tim, here's something that, as somebody who we both have talked about this, that's like the mask versus the real person.

Reggie · 40:17
Dylan's adding all these hand

Dylan · 40:19
gestures,

Reggie · 40:21
she's.. she's embracing her theater embodied

Tim · 40:24
conversation.

Mary · 40:25
Well, on the topic of embodiment, I think the key ingredient that we have lost in a corporate sphere, and that when you're in a really good play or a really good stage piece, you feel it, and you're like, I forgot, I forgot that on the base level, the way that you can do this performance without it being a taxing thing or without it being like such a difficult thing to do is play.

Tim · 40:50
Yeah,

Mary · 40:51
you're playing still into a character, for they called it a play. Yes, live into the character for the joy of feeling those low lows, like let yourself be in that dramatic place, not because you're trying to torture yourself, but because there's something really alive and exciting about getting to experience that in a safe place, and so, like, you got to create a safe place, and then you got to play, you got to do it like you're doing it because you love it, and not because somebody's forcing you, or because you're trying to be good, or whatever that Speaker 2 41:22 is. Do you

Dylan · 41:22
guys feel that way here, like with the agency? Because I saw so many like connections on my brain when you were talking. I was like,

Mary · 41:31
I definitely think about safe spaces as a thing that we don't culturally have enough of, and it's hard to know when you're in one as well, like until you've figured

Tim · 41:41
out, I would say the idea of play is lost on most, and me included. We get trained to think that play is what you do when you're a kid, but it doesn't pay the bills. You go get a real job, stop doing. I was in music, and there was times when people were like, 'When are you gonna give up on that old dream?

Reggie · 41:58
We ain't gonna do a real job.

Tim · 42:00
Yeah, when are you gonna like? Let go of that and start doing something that really can make money, and there, so you think that maybe you can't play because that is the thing that's not successful. But what I heard recently that's really helping me, like right now, come back to play, is that success is all just random. There is no formula that you can play out that will make you successful, and there's research that backs this, and so when I start to try and make myself follow the formula and do the thing that I think everyone wants, I just tell myself, like, this isn't going to work, it may work, and have fun in trying Speaker 2 42:42 it,

Tim · 42:43
but don't push yourself into this formula. This is how it's done, and if you're going to be successful, and this is what the algorithms are teaching us. This is how to make a successful video. This is how to make it a successful podcast. This is not how to make a successful podcast.

Mary · 42:57
Very strong choices,

Tim · 42:58
right? We actually went against the grain in making our podcast, it's kind of an experiment, but there are rules that we think if you follow them, you're successful. But the thing is, is that there are people out there who have done the formula. There are founders who have put in the 80 hours a week for years on end. There are actors who practice nonstop to be and perform, and they're great that never see the light of day. There are agencies that do incredible work and are authentic and will bring good into the world. Never, you'll never hear about them.

Mary · 43:29
Yeah. Well, unlike what, what is success is the other thing,

Tim · 43:32
right?

Mary · 43:32
Do we have to know them for them to be successful, or if they're doing it for the love of the game, for the love of game, they're doing it for the play? But the thing about it is doing it, I would say they've succeeded if they're able

Tim · 43:42
to, but if

Tim · 43:43
you aren't a successful agency, how do you support the work you do?

Mary · 43:47
And by that, you mean if you're not a profitable,

Tim · 43:49
right? If you don't make money, if you don't get video watches, if you don't, you can't just play in a room and someone's gonna pay all your bills, right? You know, I'm saying,

Mary · 43:57
you gotta go perform some other way,

Tim · 43:59
right? And I think the reality of that is lost because people are just doing whatever on YouTube and acting like they are, and I'm saying YouTube, I'm singling it out, because there's this visual appeal to watching someone else do something that looks really popular and successful, and you're like, I could do that

Reggie · 44:16
successful, and like, my kids are watching other people play video games, which to me blows my mind,

Tim · 44:23
right. But they, so they're what they're seeing in that is that I can play video games and other people watch me, and I could be, I could have a career doing that, which subconsciously mind-blowing. It's mind-blowing, but these people do have careers doing that.

Reggie · 44:34
Yeah, video games, and people watch other people play

Tim · 44:39
the number one trend this year in on YouTube is live streaming.

Reggie · 44:43
Yeah, it's just seeing someone play a video game is for whatever reason appealing.

Tim · 44:51
And this isn't just with us. This is like when we work with clients and branding their company. They also want.. why does everyone want.. um. Uh, cultural research and market research. They want to know where they should fit, instead of what are we, who are we, what do we want, what world do we want to create. They want to know where can I fill a gap, so that I can succeed.

Mary · 45:15
How can I twist myself into what I think the market needs, instead of finding what you can freely give,

Tim · 45:21
right?

Mary · 45:21
What's obvious to come from,

Tim · 45:23
right? And what is the reward to just get more money to do that more?

Mary · 45:28
We do kind of want some money, so if you've got some,

Tim · 45:31
this is something we're literally wrestling with, because you can do good work all the time, all your days, and still not see the light of day. There's something about the connections you have, the relationships you have. You, but you are tapping his back, and you have some killer connections. There is something about the whole thing, even though it's random. There's an energy that flows through, and maybe this is a mindset, maybe this is getting back to some elevated thing, where, where the performance is that you believe you are successful, you act as if you were successful.

Reggie · 46:12
That's the performative part,

Tim · 46:14
that's the performative part. And to get natural and to believe, Speaker 2 46:16 fake it

Reggie · 46:17
till you make it

Tim · 46:18
right. And this came up in our last topic, our last conversation. Can

Mary · 46:21
I say, like, you keep throwing the word successful around, like everybody knows what that means. I think you can define it differently, and I would say act like you're having a good time. I

Reggie · 46:30
was gonna say, because everybody's measuring success.

Tim · 46:32
No, but let me define it to a place that everyone can agree on.

Reggie · 46:35
Okay,

Tim · 46:35
success that supports your life, so if you, if you are successful, and you're happy, and I'm having a very personal experience here in this conversation, because my most recent past has been successful in every area I wanted success, except the money. When previous to this, previously past few years, my success was money, and everything else I wanted, like I wanted a community of guys I can hang out with. I wanted to, I wanted this feeling of fulfillment. I want to be closer to my family. All those things are happening, but then there's no money. And so, when you have levels of success, I know success is defined differently for everyone, and happiness, and all this stuff, but what do you do when you need food. Success is putting food on your table, that's what I'm going to define it as, because everyone else can measure it differently. But if you don't have food on your table, you're out on the road trying to beg for

Mary · 47:30
it. So now we've come to the capitalism corner of the podcast, where it's like you shouldn't have, in my opinion, you shouldn't have to have money to have food,

Tim · 47:38
right?

Mary · 47:39
Whoa, whoa, is

Tim · 47:41
it a human right

Mary · 47:42
to eat? I mean, like, theoretically we could all grow our own, but that's its own sort of performance in a way that would be a very unnatural performance for me.

Reggie · 47:51
I do have an interesting story that was about an exchange, it involves Speaker 2 47:56 theater,

Mary · 47:57
bring it back, Reggie, bring it,

Reggie · 47:58
and it was about something coming full circle without the exchange of money, which I thought was actually really beautiful. So, there's a local theater company called NC Stage. They were the first pro bono project I did when I ran my solo agency. Yeah, I did their.. I did a website for them years ago, and then, you know, Charlie and Angie, we've stayed in touch. We've, we're friends, you know. We'd see each other, we, you know, catch up every now and then. In 2020 and Tim probably knows about this, our basement flooded. We had this, was before we had the drainage solutions in place. It was horrible. They had to, you know, is like I paid $9,000 to have a company come in and mitigate, and then they ended up cutting our drywall in varying degrees from five to 15 inches all the way around, and then the quote to put everything back was like another $6,000 and then I just was lamenting about it on Facebook, and I made some posts, and Charlie, who owns NC Stage with his wife Angie, saw it. I was like, "Dude, I got you, and he actually came with another buddy who happens to be the husband of Heather Malloy, another local, I guess, theater company, because she is our local professional ballet instructor for Terpsichore, her husband Travis and Charlie basically spent a month and a half coming to our house and putting all of our dry roll back for us, and didn't charge us. I just bought them food every other day or so, and, and so there was no exchange of money, but it was this, you know, it's, it's, it's like the, it was goodness, but got goodness.

Mary · 49:44
Yeah, I believe

Reggie · 49:45
it's a really beautiful

Tim · 49:47
kind of the who you know, and that's that's perfect. Well,

Mary · 49:51
you got to stay open. I feel Speaker 2 49:53 like

Mary · 49:54
Reggie has sort of mastered some of these principles, like Reggie's playing with them. Sorry if you don't subscribe to this,

Tim · 49:59
no, but Speaker 2 49:59 you. What if you

Mary · 50:00
play with everybody,

Tim · 50:01
but what if Reggie's personality type, which this is probably true, enjoys that play is natural,

Mary · 50:10
and you don't like

Reggie · 50:10
I love being,

Tim · 50:11
and what if my personality type, or Dylan's personality type, or yours? I'm just saying, what if your personality type isn't attuned to that who you know type game

Mary · 50:21
person, I

Tim · 50:27
mean, I would say big goodness. I would love to believe in big goodness, and I think that it does live. Just think we're in. Speaker 2 50:34 You

Reggie · 50:35
say big goodness, big

Tim · 50:36
goodness.

Reggie · 50:36
I love big

Tim · 50:37
goodness.

Reggie · 50:38
Yeah, show big goodness.

Tim · 50:41
It's like leaving that something exists, even though you don't see it prevalent, prevalently.

Mary · 50:48
Yeah, and like being, I don't know, Reggie knows so many people and has keeps in contact, and like has that general good will.

Reggie · 50:58
See, I grew up an only child, and I think I think there's two things that happen when people are only children. One path is they become more introverted because they're used to being alone. I didn't like being alone, so all my friends were like siblings to me. I just gobbled them up because I absolutely love being around people, and my whole life has been about growing my, my siblingship, you know, like, you become like a brother, you guys are becoming like sisters or daughters, like, and it's just one of those things where I just really love people, and it's like, the more the merrier

Tim · 51:33
sense, because I grew up between two brothers,

Reggie · 51:34
yeah,

Tim · 51:35
so I'm gonna fight for survival,

Reggie · 51:37
totally, Speaker 2 51:37 yeah,

Reggie · 51:38
and I wasn't one older

Tim · 51:39
than me, and a one a year younger, year and a half Speaker 2 51:41 younger.

Reggie · 51:42
Yeah, some like playing video games, we're like, you know, what would make this better? A buddy

Tim · 51:46
would make this better is not having to fight for a piece of pizza. I remember a store, a literal experience in my life when we brought pizza home, and my brother, my older brother, could eat faster than anything you've ever seen. Oh man, the exact opposite. Yeah, I'm still a slow eater. My family would be up and cleaning and doing all their things while I'm

Dylan · 52:08
still like

Mary · 52:09
breathing.

Tim · 52:12
Yes,

Mary · 52:12
Aaron,

Tim · 52:15
it is. You gotta breathe, but you have to chew too. That's a part of that.

Reggie · 52:18
And digestion starts in the mouth, so technically you should chew like 100 Speaker 2 52:22 times

Mary · 52:22
before you.

Tim · 52:23
I'm a good food performer.

Reggie · 52:25
Yeah,

Tim · 52:25
I should be in mud. Anyway, my brother ate all the pizza, and I had one piece.

Reggie · 52:30
Oh, dude,

Tim · 52:31
after that experience, I used to take my pizza, I would count them all up, and I divide them equally,

Reggie · 52:36
smart. And

Tim · 52:36
then I would take my pieces and hide them, basically.

Reggie · 52:38
Yeah,

Tim · 52:39
kind of like around my arm.

Reggie · 52:40
Yeah,

Mary · 52:41
and he

Tim · 52:41
didn't intentionally do it. He just ate with..

Reggie · 52:43
he just wasn't hungry when

Tim · 52:45
thinking about it. So I can see that now. And I'm actually trying to change my perspective, probably be influenced by you. Where.. and I read this book called Courage to Be Disliked.

Reggie · 52:57
The

Tim · 52:58
Courage to Be Disliked, so good. The guy says, and I say this now on my LinkedIn

Mary · 53:03
card, living into this.

Tim · 53:05
I am

Reggie · 53:08
okay. Well,

Tim · 53:10
I would say that there is a part of acting where you're trying to get people to like you, so that you can have, so that you can have this general goodness, like if everyone likes me, they'll help me when my basement floods. If everyone likes me, they'll refer me. If everyone.. so I have lived a life of trying to be liked. So now I read a book about being disliked and being okay with that, and having the courage to do that. But what the book actually says is that you have to see the world as we are all comrades, and I say this on my LinkedIn post now, because I'm trying to train myself, instead of we're all in competition, which is actually capitalism, Speaker 2 53:45 right?

Tim · 53:46
Like, we're all fighting each other for the same pizza,

Reggie · 53:48
the same piece, slice of pizza, right?

Tim · 53:50
We are all comrades, and I see you guys as my comrades. You're with me in this, you're on this journey.

Mary · 53:57
We all want everybody to eat, right? I'll share that goal.

Reggie · 54:00
I want to share something funny just on that, and it's totally an aside, but my brother-in-law used to stake his claim with his ice cream by getting his big old giant portion and licking classics. Yeah, he's like, it's mine, so you weren't, you weren't gonna take any of that back. I just thought about that when you're talking about your pizza, like you shouldn't just lick it in branding. Yeah, like I don't know, I don't want to lick my clients like mine, but I'm willing

Tim · 54:34
to this men's group, and they say this men's group, men, now they say we're the hunting party, and I had this real realization as we were in our last gathering that we weren't really in a hunting party, because in a hunting party you're all hunting to eat together,

Reggie · 54:50
yeah,

Tim · 54:50
but this group was more like let's get there and talk about how we're hunting in our own lives, which is a different thing, because if we came together and maybe. Maybe we're a hunting party, because if we all eat based on what we hunt, then we are hunting together. We're trying to capture some kind of prey and eat together. So, what if the whole society was a hunting party together, where we all eat together?

Mary · 55:16
I'm just gonna get on the feminism wagon here for a minute and say, why do we have to be hunting, and why can't we see the world as foraging?

Reggie · 55:23
Yes, why aren't we planting? Well,

Mary · 55:25
it's the

Tim · 55:27
vegetarian

Mary · 55:28
banger

Mary · 55:30
mic.

Mary · 55:31
The planet is.. I don't know. Is

Tim · 55:34
this a feminist? Are you saying

Mary · 55:36
wait on? He has a red light, and I have a green light. Okay. Sorry

Dylan · 55:43
about that, pals. We were having some technical

Mary · 55:45
difficulties. I just need to say, like, why do we need to be hunting? Is my question. But why

Tim · 55:55
did you say that's a feminist thing? Because I know women that hunt

Mary · 55:57
well, totally, and I'm probably a female hunter, but I'm just trying to say,

Tim · 56:02
are definitely a hunter,

Mary · 56:04
but I'm saying it's the idea that something else

Tim · 56:07
has to die,

Mary · 56:08
has to die, and we have to chase it in its pursuit, which is totally my vibe, but I'm saying, like,

Tim · 56:14
I

Mary · 56:15
can't deny that, that I am just that flavor of person, but I'm saying, like, I prefer the idea that, like, everything we need is just waiting for us, like, weird

Tim · 56:27
that something doesn't have to die. I

Mary · 56:30
think

Reggie · 56:31
that I mean, I've killed a few carrots in my life,

Tim · 56:35
the show where those aliens can't kill anything, Pluribus,

Reggie · 56:42
yeah. they Speaker 2 56:43 can't

Tim · 56:43
kill anything living, they can't pick an Speaker 2 56:45 apple.

Mary · 56:46
Where's the line? And I don't know that I'm the person to judge that, but I'm just saying, like, that's a huge expenditure of effort to go chase it down and have to let it run away and kill

Tim · 56:59
traps and let him enter the trap,

Mary · 57:01
or maybe I'm a trapper. Speaker 1 57:02 You're a

Reggie · 57:03
trapper.

Tim · 57:04
No, I.. I'm pushing back because I've also felt this way.

Mary · 57:08
Yeah,

Tim · 57:08
and this is the first time in this men's group where I've been told to kill my old ways. There's a.. there's a point at which

Reggie · 57:15
you

Tim · 57:15
must

Reggie · 57:16
team and killing his old ways, that's different,

Tim · 57:18
right? But there's a point at which you can't rely on something you always did, and that was hard for me, because I became comfortable in the things I always did, and change and to evolve. Change

Reggie · 57:29
is different, and

Tim · 57:30
that everything, the circle of life, there is a circle of life. And then I just.. there's so.. there is a thing where something dies and re-enters the ground, and there's a circle to it. There's a process, but we as humans have become so afraid of death, and we are afraid of the future. We dread the thing that is happening to us. That's why we're stuck in this eternal youth obsession, trying not to die, because we don't want to end. We don't be there's a, there's a, there's a more connected experience we can have. What, because we all eat together, because we're all connected together.

Reggie · 58:08
What if embracing death made you better experience life?

Mary · 58:14
Oh, absolutely

Tim · 58:14
right. And I think it does, and I think there is a lot of good conversation out there about this, like about death doulas, and

Reggie · 58:22
yeah,

Tim · 58:22
and really talking to your family about when you die. I would like this to happen, or this is something that I've been thinking about, that something we never talk about. It's too intense, it's sad.

Reggie · 58:33
Don't plan for their death, and then all of a sudden it happens,

Tim · 58:36
right.

Mary · 58:37
Here's a what if. What if we could make the passage of time and the passage of our lives less scary by playing at it before it actually has Speaker 2 58:48 to happen.

Reggie · 58:49
Yeah,

Mary · 58:50
that's a lot of the drama and the comedy of it all, is like, let me pretend like I am in this high stakes situation, and then when an actual high stakes situation arrives, you can greet it with that sense of like presence and play and groundedness versus being afraid all the time of whatever it is coming at you.

Reggie · 59:07
I love play, and I love, I love us embracing play, and I feel like, honestly, one of my favorite things about my team, my 40 hearts family, is coming in here and not actually feeling, even though we do hard work, doesn't feel like work, because we, we always, you know, we weave a little bit of play in there. You

Mary · 59:28
keep me there, Reggie. I think that's like, honestly,

Tim · 59:31
you're the play anchor play,

Mary · 59:34
but it's such a vital.. I cannot overstate this, like it's not something that everybody gets in their work life.

Tim · 59:41
I play all the time. What are you talking about?

Mary · 59:44
Yeah,

Tim · 59:44
my whole personas play.

Mary · 59:45
Yeah, totally.

Reggie · 59:46
And I'm always like pulling him into my play too. We're snickering on the other end of the table.

Mary · 59:52
That's part of the beauty of it, like I think it adds a lot to my life, but

Reggie · 59:57
I also think it's why a client, our clients. Love us, because they see that we are playful and approachable, and we're not, like, you know, serious, like we're serious when we need

Mary · 1:00:08
to be. I mean, Tim and I were

Mary · 1:00:09
to

Mary · 1:00:09
take the meeting alone, I think we would become too

Reggie · 1:00:11
much. Like, damn, we need Reggie here,

Tim · 1:00:16
yeah, yeah.

Dylan · 1:00:18
We gotta play more, that's our resolve. We gotta play more.

Mary · 1:00:22
Yeah, let's play more.

Tim · 1:00:22
Yeah, I,

Mary · 1:00:24
he doesn't sound bought in.

Tim · 1:00:25
No, the whole thing about the theater comedians turning into serious is that I would have these moments where I'd be by myself, and this happened with us once, where I'm trying to be myself, and then someone's like, that's not you. Oh yeah, and I'm right, because I am a certain way in front of people, and I'm, and I'm also goofy, and people that would hear me sing would be like, "You're so serious, intense, Speaker 2 1:00:47 but

Tim · 1:00:47
you're so goofy when we talk to you, and I don't even know my own performance based on who I'm with and what I'm doing, and so I, I guess I want to play in my experience with myself, I want to play, so hear me on this in a way that isn't creepy.

Mary · 1:01:08
This

Dylan · 1:01:13
is a cry for help, and this all

Tim · 1:01:15
may be, maybe

Reggie · 1:01:21
you're embracing yourself a little small business.

Tim · 1:01:26
Okay, let me try it in a different way, and it's not so alarming. How do I have play in my experience, in my experience, not with others,

Reggie · 1:01:35
right?

Tim · 1:01:36
Because I like to, I bet I play games with my brothers and my children and my family, but how do I have a sense of play in myself?

Dylan · 1:01:44
Because

Reggie · 1:01:44
you play video games by yourself, never see

Tim · 1:01:47
no, but I did for a while, but

Reggie · 1:01:50
one game, like one game Speaker 2 1:01:51 Breath of

Tim · 1:01:52
the Wild.

Reggie · 1:01:53
No,

Tim · 1:01:54
I got very into that.

Reggie · 1:01:55
See if you can

Tim · 1:01:56
play,

Reggie · 1:01:58
see if you can get an emulator for it on your phone,

Tim · 1:02:00
video games ever, totally as they're this, and Leo,

Reggie · 1:02:04
you're like, I don't enjoy them.

Tim · 1:02:06
No, it's like I don't get the gaming

Mary · 1:02:08
child's play.

Reggie · 1:02:11
Still play video games, always play video, but

Mary · 1:02:15
Alex is working on me. Alex is like slowly bringing me in, and

Mary · 1:02:19
it's,

Mary · 1:02:19
it's better than

Reggie · 1:02:20
it. Here's the thing, for me, sometimes this is what I've learned. I've learned that I'm more productive, and my ideas come more free flowing when I step aside and take a moment to play, which is why I like video games. So, I'll, like, you know what, I need to play video games for like five minutes, and they'll come back to it, and things will be snapping, and that is

Dylan · 1:02:45
Reggie. Also, has a game dashboard in his office, actively right now. If you get sick,

Tim · 1:02:52
my sense of play,

Reggie · 1:02:54
so you have to find what that play is for you.

Tim · 1:02:56
This will throw you for a loop. My sense of enjoyment in life comes after I finish the thing that you're stepping away from.

Reggie · 1:03:03
Yeah,

Tim · 1:03:04
so I,

Reggie · 1:03:04
you're different, don't push, push, push. Speaker 2 1:03:06 Yeah,

Tim · 1:03:07
then I will feel a sense of play. I'm not gonna play a video game, but I'll go in and like enjoy a day or a meal or something. I

Mary · 1:03:13
something more refined.

Reggie · 1:03:14
Will you at least play with your food, because, like, not play if you're not playing?

Tim · 1:03:19
He's four. He thinks I play all the time.

Reggie · 1:03:23
Oh, really?

Tim · 1:03:23
I love to play with

Reggie · 1:03:24
what gives him. Oh, because you play,

Dylan · 1:03:27
yeah. Why? How did he get to this?

Tim · 1:03:33
My mom is also someone who has played constantly her whole life. I could see that.

Reggie · 1:03:39
Yeah, your mom's amazing. I could totally see that,

Tim · 1:03:42
and I put that on first, but it's exhausting, because I am not a person that just naturally plays. I just try and let myself I perform for him. I'm

Reggie · 1:03:51
a total,

Tim · 1:03:51
and at the swimming pool, all the kids gather around me, and I'm throwing him in the pool, and I make him wild, but I'm performing

Reggie · 1:03:58
for them to do

Tim · 1:03:59
that all day.

Reggie · 1:04:00
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know, you're doing it, but you're like, not another kid,

Tim · 1:04:05
and what if I don't have to figure this out? What if just having this conversation with you guys gives me a different way to approach the way I think and the way I feel in my experience,

Reggie · 1:04:15
and finding your own sense of play? I do think that's that's something important and worth, and being in pursuit of,

Tim · 1:04:23
right?

Dylan · 1:04:24
What

Reggie · 1:04:25
if I might look differently for you?

Dylan · 1:04:26
What if this, like, performance that you're putting on, like, right now? Because, like, I see it, we can see you. I know this is you, though.

Reggie · 1:04:34
You're just Speaker 2 1:04:34 an actor.

Dylan · 1:04:34
I know this is you, though. But it's like, I don't know, you got to, like, figure out how to perform in for your heart and like being true to yourself, because I see all these like big pictures happening, and I'm like, I can see, I don't know, I can just see the tension, and I think like in me, yes, and you, and I can feel it, but it's not a bad thing, and I don't want to tell you what to do with your life, because that's like not my purpose, but my purpose, no, it is your purpose, that's. Party

Reggie · 1:05:02
job description. Did you not know that?

Dylan · 1:05:05
But it's like, I don't know if it's trying new things, because you do have this, like, I know what I like and what I don't like, and I think that's really impressive, because I don't have that. But I think, like, doing something new for the first time, like, for the first time, that you don't have any, like, oh, I know, I'm not gonna like this, so I'm gonna close that off. I don't know, opening yourself, yeah, like cold playing,

Reggie · 1:05:26
I mean, I guess you do like bring up a good point, because I never tried that before, but I think you're right, a lot of your play involves other people, I think, how much fun we have together, and we're always playful and goofing off together, even when we work off, even when we work out, we're like, you know, we're cracking jokes, and we're laughing, we're cracking each other up, but I don't, I don't ever see you in your office, like you're in your office, once you close that door, you were just like a machine,

Mary · 1:05:54
and we probably are getting to the end of the battery life of this,

Reggie · 1:05:58
it's already gone. Oh,

Mary · 1:06:00
is a dead

Reggie · 1:06:02
nope. He said we're good.

Mary · 1:06:04
Thank

Reggie · 1:06:05
you. Means good. Bring this to a

Mary · 1:06:15
close us off. Oh, that's right. I'm not trying to take it's hard to balance the need for achievement or the desire for achievement with the desire for play, but I think that's the magic sauce, that's the magic intersection. If we can keep both at the same time and stay present, that your whole life is going to be awesome.

Reggie · 1:06:35
I love that. Speaking of magic sauce, I'm getting hungry. So, what Speaker 2 1:06:38 do you

Mary · 1:06:39
thank

Tim · 1:06:39
you, Dylan, for saying that, because I know it's hard for you to say to someone like

Dylan · 1:06:43
my boss,

Tim · 1:06:43
a boss type figure, and I don't want you to ever be intimidated by her brand dad. I appreciate Speaker 2 1:06:48 you saying one

Reggie · 1:06:49
of her brand dads,

Dylan · 1:06:50
giving perspective. So, Reggie's hungry, and we're going to close off, because Tim's mic did die. So, anyways, this was age. Thank you for joining us. Your time is very valuable, and we very much appreciate you spending it on us. Goodbye, Theater World.

Reggie · 1:07:04
Thanks, guys.

Mary · 1:07:06
Great job, guys. Put it on my chair. Thanks

Mary · 1:07:10
for listening. This podcast was created and developed by our hosts: Reggie Tidwell, Tim Scroggs, Mary Green, and Dylan Garcia. Produced by me, Mary Green. Live production and editing by Will Kennedy. Graphic design by Dylan Garcia, and set design by Megan Scroggs. Today's episode is presented lovingly