Crying, Grief & The Emotions We're Holding

Tim · 0:02
Jeannie, what was your favorite point of this podcast?

Jeannie · 0:05
It was hearing about your spiritual awakening. Yeah, it's beautiful.

Reggie · 0:09
Mine was when Jeannie said, I'll give you something to cry about. We all had a visceral response to that.

Ricardo · 0:17
Mine was when Jeannie was talking about how emotions can be malleable and like clay.

Reggie · 0:27
Well, a lot of cat talk this episode. On the lighter side, loved hearing about everybody's cats.

Tim · 0:33
People love cats. Mine was just pulling such a subject that had such relevance for this group and for the guests, and I thought it was a very special episode.

Reggie · 0:43
I did try insoles and they lifted my feet too high, and then it was the They were— yeah, then, yeah, then my heel kept coming, feeling like it was going to come out.

Ricardo · 1:01
Feels like this is a dig at my shortness.

Tim · 1:03
No, not at all.

Reggie · 1:06
Hey, welcome to Age. We're glad you're here today. I'm glad you're choosing to spend the time with us. I'm your host, Reggie Tidwell. Today we have Jeannie Adair, we have Tim Scroggs, of course, who's a regular, and then we have Ricardo Tejeda. Ricardo. I like that. We call him lovingly Ricky.

Ricardo · 1:27
Ricky.

Reggie · 1:27
Yep.

Ricardo · 1:28
Well, my wife calls me Ricky.

Tim · 1:29
That's fine.

Reggie · 1:30
Yeah.

Ricardo · 1:31
My parents call me Ricardo. Really?

Reggie · 1:33
I love it. See, my dad used to call me Reginald, but usually when I was in trouble. So if people say it, it's like a trauma response.

Tim · 1:41
That's like a—

Ricardo · 1:42
like, man, Reginald's like a— you don't hear that name.

Reggie · 1:46
No.

Ricardo · 1:46
And it's like—

Reggie · 1:47
I don't think anybody who was given the birth name Reginald goes by Reginald.

Ricardo · 1:51
Really?

Reggie · 1:52
I'd be concerned if they did, unless they were like British. or some English or something, you know, Reginald, get in here.

Tim · 1:57
Well, it's so proper.

Reggie · 1:59
It's so proper. It's overly proper. I didn't get the sheet on everybody's, so I'm going to try this out. You are marketing strategist for a startup called CX.

Jeannie · 2:10
I'm head of creative for a customer experience startup.

Reggie · 2:14
Okay. For a customer experience startup. It involves a lot of strategy, but it does involve a lot of strategy. Yeah, I would imagine it does.

Jeannie · 2:20
Absolutely.

Reggie · 2:21
And then Ricky is a phenomenal designer, photographer, and storyteller. He's a videographer. He does a lot of storytelling. We'll have all of both of their details in the caption when this goes live. But let's go ahead and get a topic. So somebody—

Tim · 2:39
You want the trash can?

Reggie · 2:39
Pass me the can.

Jeannie · 2:41
Oh, I, I put my sticky in there.

Reggie · 2:43
Oh, did you? We're gonna pull that one.

Tim · 2:47
We do find trash in there randomly, so that must be the guests throwing trash in our trash can. Pulling out pee rolls. That's traditionally what it's for, so you're not wrong.

Reggie · 2:55
Yes, traditionally trash cans are used for trash, but today—

Tim · 2:58
But with your experience, it's the right thing.

Reggie · 3:01
Yes, so I'm gonna take a peek here and see what's going on. This is gonna be an interesting one. All right, guys, you ready for this? Y'all ready for this?

Tim · 3:13
So...

Jeannie · 3:18
Crying. Oh, wow.

Ricardo · 3:20
All right.

Tim · 3:22
Yeah. I immediately think of a growingly popular influencer, I guess you could call him, Prof G. Have you heard of him?

Reggie · 3:31
Oh, I have heard of him. Maybe from you, actually.

Tim · 3:35
I can't remember his full name right now off the top of my head.

Reggie · 3:38
Maybe it's Prophet G.

Tim · 3:39
It's actually Professor G. He started as a university professor, but he really speaks young boys. I mean, young men, like teenage.

Reggie · 3:50
Okay.

Tim · 3:51
And he, like, helps young men find their place in the world. He speaks about all subjects: politics, money, saving, family. But he just had this podcast episode where he found his ability to cry. And, like, he's discovered his ability to show and to feel affection. At a very late time in life. And so I was watching this video with my son, who's 17 now, and it was him giving 17-year-old advice. And it had everything to do with feeling your feelings and crying, which, I mean, that's like, I just think it's rare to hear someone talking about crying.

Reggie · 4:35
I think, for me, I think the first thing comes to mind is how certainly in the Black community, you're told, like, not to cry because it shows, like, weakness. And so I grew up around men who never showed their emotion. And I loved crying. I think, you know, for me, I think we talked about this maybe on another episode, but I had this one moment when I was around 10 where I had this little music photo box thing.

Jeannie · 5:06
Oh, yeah.

Reggie · 5:07
And it had all these pictures of me when I was, like, a baby on it. And I was sitting in, like, the sunspot and I had that thing and I spent it and I heard the music and I was watching these pictures of me and I got filled with emotion because it was the realization that I will never be that person again. But the release of crying felt so good that I understand that it's bullshit to like hold that in.

Tim · 5:34
Mm-hmm.

Reggie · 5:34
And so I've always been comfortable with crying. And, and, and in fact, in fact, I think it's important to have that, even if you have to force that kind of release. Because when you pin up those emotions, I think over time they come on other areas, even physically. And so I think a good monthly cry, it's a good thing.

Tim · 5:57
Do you plan it, put it on your Google Calendar?

Reggie · 5:58
No, I was like, it's been a while since I cried. Let me put on a sad song. Reggie's in charge. Have a drive around in the rain.

Tim · 6:05
Who do you put on? What's your music of choice for crying?

Reggie · 6:08
Oh gosh, man, there's so many good songs. R.E.M.'s Everybody Hurts. That's such a good one, man. Certain chord progressions just get you. Sometimes you'll be driving and, you know, you might be having kind of an average day or kind of feeling alone or whatever, and a certain note will just bam, just get you and just trigger those tear ducts. I love that.

Ricardo · 6:34
Yeah. Yeah.

Reggie · 6:36
I used to be—

Ricardo · 6:38
as a child, I used to be a big crybaby. I was like—

Tim · 6:42
I think crying and crybaby might be in 2 different categories.

Ricardo · 6:44
Yeah. No. Yeah. But like, I was like, I would like, like the waterworks would start easily. Like if I like, like if I fell or hurt myself as a child, like I would instantly cry. Sometimes very like minimal things. There was one time I stepped on a rusty nail when I was 6 and I didn't even realize it and I didn't do anything.

Reggie · 7:05
That would make me cry.

Tim · 7:06
Yeah. Yeah.

Ricardo · 7:07
Very, very weird.

Reggie · 7:08
As a grownup, that would make you cry.

Tim · 7:10
The opposite.

Ricardo · 7:11
Yeah, but like kind of the same. Like, I, man, I think I've seen my mom cry once. I don't think I've ever really seen my dad cry.

Reggie · 7:21
I've never seen my mom or dad cry.

Tim · 7:23
That's what my kids said. They're like, I never see you cry, Dad. I'm like, I cry. I think I cry after you guys go to bed.

Ricardo · 7:28
Yeah, I see, I see him get emotional now in his older age. But yeah, kind of the same, man. Like being a like slight kid growing up. I'm 5'6 now, so imagine me as a child. Like, I have to— growing up where— yeah, growing up where I grew up, like a rough area. Like, yeah, you couldn't show that because like, yeah, then you become a mark.

Reggie · 7:49
Right, right, right.

Tim · 7:51
Did you get made fun of when you were a little kid?

Ricardo · 7:52
Actually not. No.

Tim · 7:54
Okay. I was wondering when you, when you called yourself a crybaby, I didn't know if it was like a cry—

Ricardo · 7:58
By my brother.

Tim · 7:59
Child that cries or like— oh yeah.

Ricardo · 8:01
Yeah, by my brother. Absolutely.

Reggie · 8:02
You probably learned to like hide it or control it like to the point where you don't want to cry in front of these guys. So I'm going to go around the corner.

Ricardo · 8:10
Which then makes you like, which then brings it on a little more because you're trying to hold it.

Reggie · 8:15
Yeah.

Ricardo · 8:15
You're trying to hold it up and you can't. That's hard too. But in adulthood, like, I cry.

Tim · 8:20
Like, I'll cry. You still cry?

Ricardo · 8:22
Yeah, I cry, dude. Movies. Oh my God. Oh my gosh.

Reggie · 8:24
Right. There's some good movies. Music. Good music.

Ricardo · 8:27
You put on the If Beale Street Could Talk soundtrack, like, automatically, like, that score. Like, I'm going to—

Reggie · 8:35
I'm donezo. It's a wrap. What about you, Jeannie? Yeah.

Jeannie · 8:38
I had somebody once tell me that crying is heart water. And I just love that.

Reggie · 8:47
I love that too.

Jeannie · 8:48
The frame of that, that people who cry easily are just in touch with what's going on in their heart, and it's healthy. And I love that there's influencers out there that are helping young people Reframe that too. It's really, really important. I cry really easily. Yeah. So yeah.

Reggie · 9:10
Yeah. Oh, I love that. So you have heart water, you're in touch with your heart. Yeah. I love that.

Ricardo · 9:15
Heart water trademarked by— yes. Yes.

Reggie · 9:19
Sporting Hearts. No, that's a Jeannie Adair trademark. I love that.

Tim · 9:23
I can't let it cry because I'm gonna explode. Really? Crying? Oh, you're just gonna like— you can't with Yeah, I think it's the thing with when you don't cry. I heard this, someone told me this once. Every time you don't cry, it's a saved—

Reggie · 9:37
Oh, it builds up over time.

Tim · 9:40
Yeah. It doesn't just go away and then you cry anew. You cry all the tears you haven't cried yet. So like when you feel emotion come up in you and then you hold it back, that one waits for the next moment to come out.

Reggie · 9:50
Oh dang. When was the last time you cried?

Tim · 9:52
That's what I'm saying. Maybe I've not cried for long enough. And I felt this in my— you know when you cry because you start to get real ugly when you cry?

Reggie · 10:00
Oh, ugly criers. Yeah, I'm an ugly crier.

Tim · 10:02
I'm seething. And, and I've watched like my mom, she cries so easily and beautifully that it's not like she's not like weeping and like uncontrollable, but she's just this calm emotional experience of crying.

Reggie · 10:17
That's how my wife is. She has such a gentle Just— I'm just like— I do that. I know, right?

Tim · 10:26
Like a little kid that just got spanked.

Ricardo · 10:28
I wonder if it's more of like an understanding of that emotion. Yeah, that's able to not like be uncontrollable with it.

Tim · 10:36
Maybe like a— like a— or maybe she's crying consistently enough to where it's like a practice. Yeah. Oh, for sure.

Ricardo · 10:43
You're comfortable with that feeling. Yeah.

Reggie · 10:45
Emotion. Yeah. I would even be as risqué as to equate a crying release with like an orgasmic release, because there's a lot of people, sometimes they don't have orgasms because they are afraid of losing that control. Right. And with crying, you're also afraid of losing that control. It's like your body's being taken over by an emotion that you can't pull it back in. And so yeah, yeah, totally.

Jeannie · 11:11
And if you don't have that release, your body stores it, and it can like store it in different areas. Absolutely. Lungs. Yep.

Reggie · 11:20
Pancreas. That's how your body has an anatomical response to stored emotion. It's funny.

Tim · 11:27
This doesn't sound good.

Reggie · 11:28
No, I know. Here's a really—

Tim · 11:31
Make me cry this episode.

Reggie · 11:33
You need to cry. Should I start hailing insults at you until you feel so bad?

Tim · 11:41
Not that kind of cry.

Ricardo · 11:43
We got to put on The Saddest Movie. We have to put on The Notebook.

Tim · 11:47
I did cry in The Notebook.

Ricardo · 11:49
Oh my God, dude.

Tim · 11:50
I don't know if you cannot cry in The Notebook.

Reggie · 11:52
He doesn't cry.

Ricardo · 11:52
You're a monster if you don't cry in The Notebook.

Reggie · 11:54
Yeah, you're a psychopath.

Tim · 11:55
So are cries in movies the same as cries in real life?

Reggie · 12:00
No. Well, maybe.

Jeannie · 12:02
How empathic are you?

Reggie · 12:03
It depends.

Jeannie · 12:04
Right?

Reggie · 12:04
Yeah. I think so.

Jeannie · 12:06
How much can you enter into it?

Tim · 12:09
So if you cry in a movie, which I do— It's triggering some part of you.

Reggie · 12:12
If you're crying watching a movie, it's triggering some it's because there's some relatable emotional thing. So it's absolutely legit.

Tim · 12:19
It's still heart water. It's not like fake heart water.

Reggie · 12:23
No, it's real heart water.

Tim · 12:24
Cinematic heart water.

Jeannie · 12:25
And there's the collective, right? The field that we are all a part of, and grief is there, and it's a deep, deep well. And so I believe when I start crying, I'm tapping into not only my own grief, but Mm-hmm.

Tim · 12:42
I love that.

Reggie · 12:43
Speaking of being empathic. Yeah, that's it. Speaking on what Jeannie was saying, or piggybacking on that, storing emotion in your body. I have known massage therapists that have told me where they've been massaging someone and they hit a certain spot and they just start bawling. And it's because it's like probably where they're storing that emotion.

Tim · 13:08
Oh, that's crazy.

Reggie · 13:09
Yeah. They literally just out of nowhere, it's not like it hurts or anything. They just hit a certain spot and it triggers their tear ducts. They just— waterworks. It's just crazy to think about, which gives credence to that, the whole concept of storing emotion in your body.

Tim · 13:25
I remember living in this— we were in this upstairs apartment and I don't— I've tried to ask my wife about this because I don't remember why. But there was a song on, and I could not stop crying. I don't know how many years it had been since I cried. This is probably when I was 18 or— and my mom was worried about me.

Reggie · 13:49
Oh, because you were crying so much?

Tim · 13:50
My wife, before she was my wife, was there with me. And it was just like I was on the floor crying. And it did feel so good.

Ricardo · 13:58
Right?

Tim · 13:58
Yeah. So maybe I'm like worried that that's what's gonna happen again.

Reggie · 14:03
So when I start to feel crying, I'm like, oh gosh, gotta hold back.

Ricardo · 14:06
Yeah, but there could be tears. He's on day 3. Tears of joy. Like, again, to go back to film, like Marty Supreme made me tear up because it was so like energetic and just like the triumphant moments in that movie, like knowing like, hey, this person worked very hard to accomplish this thing and they accomplished it. That's a, that's a relatable thing. And like, that's just pure like joy and accomplishment and hustle, pure exhilaration.

Tim · 14:34
Right. So you have crying when you feel joy. There's people that laugh and then cry, which I've also experienced, which is amazing. Because usually you're with someone else that's doing it with you.

Reggie · 14:43
Yeah, yeah.

Tim · 14:44
Laughing so hard you cry. Yeah.

Reggie · 14:46
Oh my God, that's one of the best cries right there.

Tim · 14:49
And then you laugh when you— and you cry when you're getting bullied. And you cry when you're really sad and grieving.

Ricardo · 14:54
Yep.

Tim · 14:55
How does that— that's— the crying works in all of those situations.

Reggie · 15:00
Yeah. I had a scenario once when my grandmother passed away when I was in my 20s. It was remarkably sad. It was just really, really sad. And I had already done my fair share of crying. But when I went to her funeral, there were probably 300 people in the room.

Ricardo · 15:21
Wow.

Reggie · 15:21
And it hit me. It wasn't— it was a weird kind of cry because it wasn't sadness. I was overwhelmed by the sheer amount of people that my grandmother had touched, because she was a very influential woman. You know, she was, she was like the president of the Teachers Association for a while. She was an educator for 36 years. There's students that she was their like favorite educator ever. And so I walked, I was sitting there and I looked around and I just became so overtaken with like tears. I guess it was like tears of joy. Maybe it's hard to explain, but it was just the fact of having that realization that my grandmother was this really remarkable woman and just being reminded of that by the show of force in the room, the show of people.

Ricardo · 16:13
Yeah.

Jeannie · 16:14
That's beautiful. There's a little song which I won't sing, but I'll just say the lines.

Reggie · 16:19
Jim's got a guitar. He got married with a guitar in there.

Jeannie · 16:23
When you were born, you cried and the world rejoiced. Live your life so that when you die, the world cries and you rejoice. And that's what your story about your grandmother reminds me of. It's like a life well lived.

Reggie · 16:38
Yeah, absolutely. Oh man, I love that.

Tim · 16:42
That's beautiful. Yeah.

Reggie · 16:45
I think crying is, is an underrated skill. Like it's, it's something that people should Own more.

Tim · 16:56
I, I was— I brought up, I don't know, in past and just, just then past, like being spanked. Like, as like I'm crying, like— and I was— I did grow up getting spanked.

Reggie · 17:10
Oh yeah, you and I both.

Tim · 17:11
Church and get whacked around. And, and I used to cry. And I wonder if that's part of my issue with it because of that level of—

Reggie · 17:20
Oh yeah, because you're crying out of shame or whatever.

Tim · 17:25
Like, how many emotions do you think a child feels when their parents spank them?

Reggie · 17:30
Yeah. Oh yeah.

Tim · 17:30
I grew up as it was like a normal thing. I guess that's what you did. But now I think back and I'm like, someone who's taking care of you is now hitting you.

Reggie · 17:39
Yeah.

Tim · 17:40
You're protected. You don't feel great about the person that's supposed to be protecting you.

Reggie · 17:43
You don't feel protected in the moment.

Tim · 17:44
And I never felt in danger consciously. Right. But I just wonder if that like is some weird trauma in me.

Reggie · 17:51
Even on some emotional level.

Tim · 17:54
Someone blocks my crying because it connects to something else.

Ricardo · 17:57
I mean, when you're growing up, I think, you know, especially we're of a generation to where, yeah, you typically cried because you did something wrong and you got in trouble for it.

Tim · 18:07
Like, so it's immediately connected to that.

Ricardo · 18:09
No one taught— like, I can speak for myself. No one taught me as a young kid, like, hey, crying is okay. It's okay to cry because you're happy. It's okay to show this emotion. It's okay to not understand how to comprehend something in a moment, and your only release is that. No one taught me that. So I think we tend to connect it to, oh, I did something wrong. I disappointed someone. I got in trouble for some reason. Let me not express this. And then as you get older into your teens, early adulthood, you said that's your only connection to it. I feel like—

Tim · 18:43
Right.

Ricardo · 18:44
I feel like a lot of, especially young adults, probably young adult men don't have that connection with their emotions.

Tim · 18:51
Yeah, because it is negatively connected to negative parts of your life. You know, like, no one's like, never laugh. Yeah. Because laughing is connected to fun and joy and play.

Reggie · 19:05
Laughing shows a sign of weakness.

Tim · 19:07
Don't laugh. Don't smile. But with crying, now that I'm seeing all the— and I knew this consciously, but I'm connecting it now— the joy, to cry in joy, or to cry, laugh till you cry. What if crying was connected to that, that level of an emotional or a human response versus it being that like weakness or shame?

Ricardo · 19:31
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's— I don't know. I've grown to learn how to do it and learn how to become accustomed to it. Like I was having a conversation with my wife not that long ago. This is gonna sound like I'm a sociopath, but like, as a kid—

Reggie · 19:48
Let it out.

Ricardo · 19:49
I never like, I never had, I guess, empathic connection to the outside world that like something would make me cry that happened to something or something else or someone else.

Jeannie · 20:02
Yeah.

Ricardo · 20:03
Like, again, I go back to film just because I love film. I think there is a great emotional connector. with cinema, but there was never a movie as a kid that made me cry.

Reggie · 20:13
Oh, interesting.

Ricardo · 20:15
I didn't connect with that. I always found it weird in movies of like—

Reggie · 20:20
When people would cry over—

Ricardo · 20:21
Yeah, over a stranger. This is like, you didn't know that person.

Reggie · 20:24
Yeah, I don't know them. All your tears were based on your own personal experiences, not like this.

Ricardo · 20:30
Very selfish, very internal.

Reggie · 20:32
I could see that.

Ricardo · 20:35
And that's, yeah, that's kind of, that was my understanding into sort of late teen sort of growth.

Reggie · 20:44
Yeah, emotions.

Ricardo · 20:45
Until I started to, you know, you develop and then you become a normal person and you're like, oh yeah, feelings are good.

Tim · 20:52
And then you're like, oh yeah, feelings are good.

Reggie · 20:53
I'm caught up in the stories. You're like, feelings, like, oh yeah.

Tim · 20:56
These things.

Ricardo · 20:56
I feel bad for other people. It's so interesting.

Reggie · 21:01
I have a similar thing where like when people die, like I just lost my sister just Sunday morning. She lost her struggle with cancer, which has been absolutely gut-wrenching.

Ricardo · 21:14
I'm sorry.

Reggie · 21:15
But I haven't cried yet about it. And it's not that I'm not incredibly sad, it's just that I think for me, crying is like, has to happen in a space that you give yourself. It doesn't just like— you know, like somebody, you know, like my wife was crying horribly because she and my sister were relatively close. And, and she's like, your sister's died. Like, why haven't you— why don't you feel like— yeah, I feel terrible.

Tim · 21:43
What's wrong with you?

Reggie · 21:43
Yeah, like, I feel horribly sad, but I grieve in my own way. It'll probably hit me one day while I'm driving in the car. It'll— I'll be sitting at my desk one day and I'll just get overcome with emotion. But it's not one of those things that just— now I'm just like, oh, I'm gonna cry now. It just doesn't happen like that to me. It's a very— it's hard to predict when it's gonna happen. Might be at her funeral. Yeah.

Tim · 22:06
It comes in waves.

Reggie · 22:07
It comes in waves. Yeah, it might be at her funeral. It might be, you know, it might be when I see somebody else crying about her, you know, that it hits me and I'm like, ah, it'll trigger something. But might be on this show, but it's not at any— I just can't sit and say, I'm going to cry now because she's gone.

Tim · 22:31
Do you still feel like you're in denial of it?

Reggie · 22:33
No, I don't think so. No, it's not that.

Tim · 22:36
There are phases of grief.

Reggie · 22:38
It's pretty— yeah, I felt it because I had such a great conversation with her just last weekend. before she went unresponsive. And so we talked for like an hour and we laughed and we talked about all kinds of things. And then 2 days later, she was barely opening her eyes and was unresponsive. And so—

Tim · 23:05
I have a—

Jeannie · 23:07
Yeah.

Ricardo · 23:07
It's years ago, like in 2013, a good friend of mine died by suicide. And it was, you know, it was rough at the moment. And like very, you know, out of nowhere, get a call from one of our other friends, go through the emotions. And a little arrogantly, a little selfishly, I carried guilt from it because we were close friends.

Tim · 23:35
Mm-hmm.

Ricardo · 23:37
He had moved to a different area of Broward County, of Fort Lauderdale. I started dating my wife, we lived together, and we kind of— stomach growling.

Reggie · 23:46
I thought that was the HVAC kicking in.

Ricardo · 23:51
And, you know, we didn't, we didn't lose connection, but we weren't hanging out as much. So I carried guilt of like, man, if I was a better friend, if I was there for him more.

Reggie · 24:00
It's totally normal. But yeah, absolutely.

Ricardo · 24:02
And years later, once we moved here, I was at burger bar with a couple of good friends. We were talking about it and I just started bawling, like bawling. And this was—

Reggie · 24:13
Years later?

Ricardo · 24:14
Years later, maybe in like 2016, 2017.

Reggie · 24:18
Wow.

Ricardo · 24:18
At burger bar, just bawling over it. And it was such a good release. And it made— and I came to that realization of like, I'm holding on to this arrogantly as though I could have done something different to help this person. Yeah, maybe I could have in the moment, but that's such a tricky— I don't want to say tricky. That's such a personal—

Reggie · 24:43
It is like you can't—

Ricardo · 24:45
Feel as though you can't go on. Yeah. Like there's not going to be anything that one single person can do. I don't think.

Reggie · 24:51
I'm right there with you. I have— I lost someone close to me to suicide, and it is exactly one of the things you feel like, what could I have done? How could I have made this? But the reality is, if someone has chosen that path, Yeah. There's, there's nothing you can really do. Like, you can try to be as supportive as you can, you can be there for them, you can do all the things, but it's not your responsibility to carry their burden, their weight, their whatever it is that they're feeling. And once you realize that, it gives you the opportunity to like not beat yourself up about it. You know, I think we all go through that. That was— I hope nobody has to go through that. It's a horrible way to go. Really bad right now. Yep. It really is.

Tim · 25:44
My best friend lost his friend from high school a couple— like last month.

Ricardo · 25:50
Oh, wow. Wow.

Tim · 25:52
And he had 2 kids.

Reggie · 25:54
Hmm.

Tim · 25:54
And I wonder if there's something to this, like this unfelt emotion, or the way I feel when I haven't cried in a while feels like an eruption, like I'm going to explode. And I wonder if that's the feeling when all the things in your life are turned around and upside down. You feel that like you're not going to be able to Stop whatever's coming, and you're trying to get out of that.

Reggie · 26:21
Like a freight train.

Tim · 26:22
Yeah. It's like this thing is building in you that's going to destroy you, and you have no other option. There's no practice. We're not taught to cry. We're not even taught to— this friend had lost his daughter in a pool when she was 3, I think.

Reggie · 26:42
Oh my gosh.

Tim · 26:43
Years and years and years ago. So we're not taught to grieve death, to go through death, to think about death. I used to remember going to funerals, and I would see the person because we would bring an open casket. And for me as a kid, I didn't even know how to process the reality of what was going on. It felt like it was— I was in a movie, or it was— was this real, the way it was happening? So it's like, I wonder if there's some sort of place where we are unable to, to move through things.

Jeannie · 27:12
Yeah.

Ricardo · 27:13
Yeah.

Tim · 27:13
You know, like in other cultures, there are— other ancient cultures, there were traditions that move someone through grief and through emotions. There was one where this chief lost, or the chief died, and the person who was going to take over was very close to him, and they got like a year to grieve. Like that, everyone took care of them for a year while they grieved the loss. Like it was their tradition as a tribe.

Reggie · 27:42
Interesting.

Tim · 27:43
To gather around this person and support them. And I think we don't ever get that type of ritual or that type of—

Reggie · 27:50
No, no, doesn't exist.

Tim · 27:51
Most businesses give people 3 days.

Ricardo · 27:54
Yeah.

Tim · 27:54
3 days.

Reggie · 27:55
Bereavement?

Ricardo · 27:56
Wow.

Jeannie · 27:56
Can you imagine?

Ricardo · 27:58
Yeah.

Jeannie · 27:58
3 days.

Ricardo · 27:59
I am—

Reggie · 28:00
That's like, get it together.

Tim · 28:01
Pull— and then that—

Reggie · 28:03
Get yourself together quickly.

Tim · 28:05
Pushes it all down in us.

Reggie · 28:08
Yeah. Can't grieve in 3 days.

Ricardo · 28:09
No, not at all. Yeah, you can't even—

Reggie · 28:12
I mean, you can't even scratch the surface in 3 days, really.

Ricardo · 28:15
You're not even connecting with anything.

Reggie · 28:18
No, 3 days, you're still in the immediacy of the shock, especially if you're going through the 5 stages of grief. You're still in denial, and you're basically in denial the whole time you're on your 3-day bereavement. And then anger, then you're angry, and then you're back at work.

Tim · 28:34
That's such a great place to return, right? Yeah, exactly. I'm angry and I'm going back to work.

Jeannie · 28:38
Oh man.

Tim · 28:39
But like, there's not a shared experience of grief or a shared community of, like you were saying, of pain that our crying, you know, like in the Bible they had mourners that they would bring around people who lost someone.

Jeannie · 28:55
Women would keen.

Tim · 28:55
Right. And so there was this shared grief and it allowed, you know, like if you're in a place and everyone's dancing, you're free to dance because you're in the middle of dance. But if no one's dancing, it's like, it feels awkward to get up and dance here. But if so, if everyone around you is crying, you're free to cry. You're not this weird person on the spot, right? And we don't have anything like that in our culture.

Ricardo · 29:19
No, I think it's— yeah, I think that's very heavily Western culture. I think it's hyper-American Western culture. Yeah, I think just based on the system that we live in. Like, you know, you don't— yeah, grieving, please. Yeah, we got money to make. Like, you better get back on the machine. Yeah, come to COG, right? Keep moving.

Reggie · 29:40
Yeah, yeah. To your point, I do feel like sometimes crying is, is like a yawn. You know, you see somebody do it and it triggers you to do it. And like weddings, sometimes you'll see somebody cry at a wedding and then all of a sudden there's like 4 or 5 other people that are crying. And I'm like, I hope those are tears of joy.

Tim · 29:58
But it's permission.

Reggie · 30:01
I know, right?

Tim · 30:03
Permission to break form.

Reggie · 30:04
It's permission to break form.

Tim · 30:05
Because we all are, you know, we're keeping it, keeping it professional, keeping it together. And when someone breaks that wall or that barrier, you're like, oh, we're doing this, we can do this. Yeah, it's so freeing.

Ricardo · 30:18
I do think that there is a sense of of control that people don't want to give up in that emotion. Like, we're especially— again, I feel like in Western American culture, we're taught to be so in control of our emotions, be in control of our lives. If you're not in control of your life, of your decisions, then you're doing something wrong. Especially modern culture. I mean, I feel like a lot of self-help has gone into that weird like sort of amalgamation of, of like kind of manosphere space of like being in control of your emotions. Don't let anybody trigger you.

Tim · 30:57
Is it like stoic?

Ricardo · 30:58
Kind of almost nihilism a bit. And I think having, having that release of crying kind of portrays a lack of control and that sort of portrays a sign of weakness, at least as it's presented. in mainstream. I mean, you know, you can— there's no shortage of YouTube videos that you can go on these weirdos' pages of like, don't let this happen to you. You're not a man if you do this.

Reggie · 31:26
Oh yeah, totally. That definitely seems like the—

Ricardo · 31:28
it's very— it's a rising culture. It's very strange because it's like—

Reggie · 31:32
It also sadly goes along with misogyny and—

Ricardo · 31:34
Yeah, it's a sad reality. And it's— I wonder, you know, how can you have so much control of yourself, of your body when you don't even really understand fully how, like, the capabilities of it. You don't even have an understanding of its real form or function. Like, scientists are just now starting to crack human consciousness. Like, yeah, you know, that, that, that level of control that you're supposed to have is kind of in juxtaposition of, of a very real lived experience. I think that's where that comes from, like, not wanting to release that. And then that's when we become sort of the blubbering, like snot bubbles and whatnot.

Tim · 32:13
Like surrender. Yeah. Yeah.

Ricardo · 32:15
And nobody wants to surrender to things that they can't control.

Reggie · 32:19
Oh, yes. I honestly think it's a sign of strength to be able to cry.

Ricardo · 32:22
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

Reggie · 32:23
Yes. Just the opposite.

Ricardo · 32:25
Yeah.

Jeannie · 32:25
I am. So today is the 3-month anniversary of my son dying. Oh, my son was killed. He was shot on Patton Avenue. Oh, I got mugged, and, uh, the kid who did it was 17 and took his own life. Then he took his own life because he didn't— I don't think he meant to kill him. It was like, so it's like a double, double tragedy. So I can't believe the topic of crime. I know.

Reggie · 32:53
I'm like, oh my God, I actually thought that when I pulled it up. I was like, oh man. Oh man. Well, you know, it's interesting, the two, two shows ago We, um, was I the host? Yeah, I think I might have been the host. 2 shows ago, we had our friend Lauren Moody on, and she's a social media expert. And the topic I pulled was social media. I am not joking.

Tim · 33:19
You know, like Harry Potter hat?

Reggie · 33:20
It's like a magic—

Tim · 33:22
This must know.

Reggie · 33:22
It's a magic trash can. It knows.

Tim · 33:25
It knows what needs to be done.

Reggie · 33:26
You almost decimated it with your Post-it No trash. I gotta sponge it so it can get its magic back.

Jeannie · 33:33
Yeah, right, right. I had some Palo Santo.

Reggie · 33:36
Yeah, there you go. Oh, I love Palo Santo. How are you? Yeah, how are you?

Jeannie · 33:41
You know, so I had always heard about grief work, but I didn't really understand, like, what, what, you know, what is that? Oh, that's like what you do when you're grieving. And I've had a lot of sad things in my life, but nothing like, like this.

Ricardo · 34:00
Yeah.

Jeannie · 34:02
And I have, you know, a grief therapist, and I have like a grief doula, which is more, more like somatic work, and an acupuncturist. And it's like, I, I went back to work after a month. So I did take a month off. My boss was great.

Ricardo · 34:21
Mm-hmm.

Jeannie · 34:22
But even that felt too soon to be honest.

Reggie · 34:24
Right. Right. I mean, that's like—

Jeannie · 34:26
It's like I had to get back to—

Reggie · 34:26
To lose a child. My gosh.

Jeannie · 34:28
Yeah.

Reggie · 34:28
But I'm sure the distraction is made of work has been helpful.

Jeannie · 34:31
The distraction has helped. So I, you know—

Tim · 34:33
Were you in the anger stage when you went back? Remember we were talking earlier? Oh, I'm sure. Had you had time to process it?

Jeannie · 34:40
The anger. So it's funny. For me, the stages aren't like linear. It feels very like spirally.

Reggie · 34:46
Oh, yeah. You're feeling a bit of each every 2 hours a day.

Jeannie · 34:49
One day I'm angry. One day I can't believe it. one day I'm just in despair, you know?

Reggie · 34:55
Yeah.

Jeannie · 34:55
But what I— what one of the therapists said, which is really great, and I think it applies to this whole topic, is that when you're working with grief, like, don't let it get cold and hard and turn like metal in your body. Keep it warm like clay. And I think—

Reggie · 35:15
Pliable.

Tim · 35:15
Yeah, pliable.

Jeannie · 35:16
And I think if we, if we practice Crying and empathy and joy, laughter and joy and tears. Like, we're soft. Yeah, we keep it soft. We keep it moving. That's where I'm at right now.

Ricardo · 35:31
What a thought. Beautiful sentiment. It's so heavy.

Reggie · 35:35
I'm gonna grab this little piece of hair right here. Oh, yeah. I don't know if the cameras even pick it up, but yeah, I'm gonna make a wish. There it goes. My—

Tim · 35:44
set it free. A good friend of mine lost her husband.

Reggie · 35:48
Oh my gosh. Yeah, that's right. A friend of ours, actually.

Tim · 35:51
One of my wife's best friends. And it hurt. It hit her with a similar amount of grief. Because when you have a friend that's losing someone, it does transfer that pain through the community.

Reggie · 36:06
Empathy. It's an empathetic response.

Tim · 36:07
And it's hard to accept it as reality. Like, it doesn't feel real. There's— it just takes Every time I think about him and the situation, I'm like, no, that didn't happen. There's no way that happened.

Reggie · 36:20
Right.

Tim · 36:20
And I wonder if I— it didn't happen to me directly, and I've actually not had that many deaths in my family, which is scary to me because I know that it's gonna happen. There's no way it can't happen. And how does it— how do you accept that as a reality? Like, how does it even make sense? in the experience. It's like they were right there, right?

Ricardo · 36:44
Yeah.

Reggie · 36:45
And he died in such a, like, mysterious—

Tim · 36:48
Yeah, it was just a hiking accident.

Reggie · 36:50
Yeah. And he was like a very skilled, very accomplished hiker. And he fell to his—

Tim · 36:57
For me, that's— for me, that says you don't really have control over when it happens.

Reggie · 37:02
Absolutely.

Tim · 37:03
I had another close friend in mentor of mine, and he's a marketing guy. He's really a great guy. His, his son passed away, and he had me make some shirts for him because he was an artist. So he took his art and he put it on shirts, and so he could just spread his name and that he was there and that he was real. And there was this like an artifact of him.

Jeannie · 37:28
Yeah.

Tim · 37:28
And the It's like you can't, you can't think there's any other way it could happen, because that is where it gets stuck, I think.

Jeannie · 37:40
Hmm.

Tim · 37:40
Like, if this would have happened, it would have been different. If I could have done this, it'd been like you were saying. There's this like, could I have changed something? But what, what this— his son lived at a very different level than the rest of us. I remember him talking to me about his son. And I told him, I was like, I wonder, since we can't change it, I wonder if he lived his life within a shorter amount of years than others live their life. So if you have a certain amount of— each of us have a certain amount of life that we live through no matter how many years we are alive. So if someone is going to die early, they have gotten all their life lived through that moment.

Reggie · 38:22
It's their window.

Tim · 38:23
Yeah. In more extreme ways maybe, or more deep ways. And I wonder if they're— so that, that's so that that guilt of I did something wrong or someone did something wrong that holds us is released.

Ricardo · 38:38
Mm.

Tim · 38:39
You know, because that— I don't know what that feels when you said it, when it's hard and hard as metal. I feel that sometimes, you know, like when a certain amount of life passes and there's not a movement, there's not like a you're not attached to it because it's too painful in ways.

Reggie · 38:56
Yeah. Like the James Dean, Jimi Hendrix, Marilyn Monroe, like they were all part of the like live fast, die young. Like all these people died so much younger than they should have, but they had these like really full— the arc of their life is almost complete. Not in any general sense, but if you look at it in the way that you were saying, Perhaps their timeline was just shorter.

Tim · 39:25
Do you think— I was just wondering this because it's hard to say. I would say your son died too early.

Reggie · 39:30
Way too early.

Tim · 39:31
Way too early. And if there's anything we could do to stop it or undo it, I'd be doing whatever that was to help you.

Reggie · 39:36
Oh, in a heartbeat. Absolutely.

Tim · 39:38
There's no excuse. There's no like, oh, they lived long enough. It's not the case. It was too soon. So I wonder if anyone's arc of life is ever complete or if that's just a movie thing. You know, where you wrap it all nicely.

Jeannie · 39:54
And I mean, you're opening a huge box here. Yeah, but like, you know, if you believe that you only get one time around the merry-go-round, then yeah. But if you believe that we're gonna incarnate hundreds or thousands of times, then this is just like, you know, it's a blip. And Possibly. This is— we're here to learn, to learn to love, right? To learn to be of service. And if we don't get it, if we don't learn all our lessons, then we'll get another chance.

Reggie · 40:32
Come back and do it. Yeah. You know, it's funny, my wife is— my wife believes in reincarnation. And I, you know, I feel like, like there's no way of knowing with absolute certainty. So I entertain all possibilities, you know. But lately, there's been at least 2 stories that I came across where— and one of them, it was absolutely mind-blowing. This toddler was going on about this friend that he had, who was in this village that he wouldn't even know the name of, but he knew the name of it. He knew the house, he knew everything. He's like, yeah, I had this friendship with this guy, blah, blah. He's going on and telling this whole story. And people are like, what is going on with this kid? This is crazy. And so they looked into it. And they found the guy in this little village whose friend had died months before, like that many years before.

Jeannie · 41:29
Wow.

Reggie · 41:29
And to the T, everything this toddler had said was true. They corroborated the story with this old guy. No way. And it was like, okay, so I think I'm kind of open to believing in reincarnation now. Because how else? How else? And there's been at least 2 of those stories that I've followed.

Jeannie · 41:51
There's a great book by Christopher Bache called Life Cycles. And he, he talks about all these anecdotes that are like people have researched, like what you just said.

Reggie · 42:02
Yeah.

Jeannie · 42:03
All over the world. And, you know, across cultures and what they think is that these children may have died suddenly or something. And, and so those memories are like still intact, still fresh. But they found that over time, they can start to forget.

Reggie · 42:24
So it's just like this window, this small window.

Tim · 42:27
That's so— well, it came up in a— it came up in a recent, recent podcast. Mary said something about There was this person that described your body as a spacesuit.

Reggie · 42:37
Oh, interesting.

Tim · 42:38
And you need it to live on Earth. Your soul cannot live on Earth without this body. And so we call it the meat suit. And I wonder if we identify so much with our bodies and our form—

Reggie · 42:50
Meat suit.

Tim · 42:51
That we think this is what we are. But there is something else inside of us, like the spark of life or the consciousness we are is so much more than this astronaut suit can hold.

Reggie · 43:04
I mean, I do like meat suit.

Tim · 43:06
I think this meat suit— I say skin suit. That sounds less gruesome. I don't know, like it has less visceral impact on my mind.

Ricardo · 43:16
You say skin suit, I immediately go to Pinhead.

Tim · 43:19
No, don't, don't go there.

Reggie · 43:20
Yeah, that's right.

Tim · 43:21
Don't darken this beautiful moment we have here. But if you've heard— I've heard stories, and I heard one in particular where a person had this near-death experience, and they went to this place, and they saw where these souls were choosing the life they wanted to live on Earth, because they wanted to learn something that they couldn't learn where they were in this other place.

Reggie · 43:45
Yeah.

Tim · 43:45
And they were these glowing beings, and this one person wanted to live poor. And so they went and were born on the earth into a being that would be poor their whole life because they wanted to learn what that was like.

Ricardo · 43:59
Wow.

Tim · 44:00
And they could do that over and over and learn different emotions. They could learn different feelings that they were— or disciplines. And I was like, whoa, because I guess reincarnation to me always feels like you're gonna become a worm or an eagle. But I think to me, I think reincarnation the way I believe it is is you are an eternal soul, a consciousness that has no end. And though this body dies, you don't— you go on. You go on. And so I think there's this potential that we have the opportunity to come back in and learn things that we didn't learn.

Reggie · 44:36
Think about— what was the Disney movie? Soul. You remember? Yes. I think about that. Did you not see— oh, it's such a good one. You didn't see— oh my God, it's one of my favorites.

Tim · 44:47
It's kind of an off— it's like a little bit off-center Pixar. Yeah. Yeah. You know, Pixar will always make you cry. I mean, I cried. I cry in Pixar movies.

Reggie · 44:55
That's the place to cry. Well, we'll watch Inside Out.

Tim · 44:59
Is that Inside Out? That one that's—

Reggie · 45:01
Inside Out. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeannie · 45:02
Yeah.

Tim · 45:02
My goodness. When they show the father with all his anger guys running the show.

Reggie · 45:06
Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tim · 45:09
Anyway, um, right in Soul, there's like these little souls that get pulled into the— on the earth.

Reggie · 45:15
And they have to complete their task or whatever before they can move on.

Ricardo · 45:20
Yeah, to that point, I wonder if that's one of— like, as, as scientists start to study and discover human consciousness, I wonder— I, I think that is going to be a sort of connectivity to actualizing a human soul.

Tim · 45:38
But I also wonder, when you say that, what do you mean actualizing a human soul? Like, the scientists are going to do that, or—

Ricardo · 45:44
no, that, that scientists are going to discover that.

Reggie · 45:48
That would be wild. Oh my God.

Tim · 45:49
I think the gods work.

Jeannie · 45:51
Quantum, like quantum physics.

Reggie · 45:53
Quantum physics, totally.

Tim · 45:55
You think, you think they'll be able to fabricate a soul?

Reggie · 45:57
I think not at least fabricate, but at least be able to—

Ricardo · 46:00
To human consciousness as they start to understand what human consciousness is.

Reggie · 46:04
That would be wild.

Tim · 46:04
That sounds dark.

Ricardo · 46:06
I think that they will be like, this is what makes an individual an individual, and this is how Their soul is connected to them.

Reggie · 46:15
I do not discount science. I think if it can happen, it will happen.

Tim · 46:21
Yeah, but science has always tried to find the common particle. They've never found it. No, because it does— they— the deeper they go, the closer they can look, the more space that they find. Yeah, at every level, the particle is just more space, and it's more space. So there is a search for something that isn't there yet.

Ricardo · 46:42
We don't have an understanding for it. We don't have a comprehension of it.

Tim · 46:45
Right, because they think we don't have the tools. But what if we have had the comprehension of what it is, but we've lessened that to a— to like, oh, you're just being this way, or you're being crazy? Or— because ancient tradition also had studies into where we come from, what we experience when we're alive, what consciousness is. It wasn't like Science was the first branch of humanity to try and discover what it is that makes us alive and makes us different than other creatures. I wonder if we're looking for something to avoid looking at the mystery. Oh. If you have something you don't know quite how it applies, like crying, no one really knows how crying applies. You can work out, lift weights, and you can get big muscles. You can laugh. Laughter does good like a medicine. But when you say crying, it has so many variables around it, so many different ways you can be made to cry. You're not going to laugh at something that's really mean unless you're a sociopath. You may have felt that way.

Jeannie · 47:53
Right.

Tim · 47:54
So crying has been this thing that's been universally in America Oppressed, like, don't cry unless you're a girl. This is weird. Maybe girls are allowed to cry and then guys are like, don't cry like a girl. That's a horrible thing to say because I think everyone— we agree everyone should cry. That's a stupid thing, but it's part of our culture. I wonder if we're avoiding looking at the mystery of grief and of crying and we keep trying to scientifically solve it.

Ricardo · 48:24
Yeah. It goes back to that control, of wanting to have that control.

Tim · 48:30
Or to understand. Yeah.

Reggie · 48:31
To understand, you know, like we want to know some level of control as well. Yeah.

Tim · 48:36
Because things we don't understand are scary.

Ricardo · 48:38
Then we can sort of then figure it out.

Reggie · 48:40
It's interesting when I see— I always get irked when I see, like in movies, when there's like a woman that's crying and someone is like super rigid and they're like, why are you crying? Don't cry. Instead of like, Shifting their— and when I see that, I'm like, why are they doing this movie that way? There's something about those kinds of depictions and portrayals in movies and shows that I've always had this visceral anger response to. I'm like, let her cry!

Tim · 49:14
Okay, well, this brings up a good point then. Do you think there's a time when someone should not be crying?

Reggie · 49:19
That's a really good question.

Tim · 49:22
Right, because I'm going to confess a moment that probably I'm not proud of, but Uh-oh. It didn't feel bad in the moment, but this morning, my son, my littlest son, he's 4, my wife didn't make his lunch right. He wanted it to be a certain way. The spoon wouldn't fit, so he started crying and he was getting all upset. And I know it's just because he's tired.

Reggie · 49:47
Yeah.

Tim · 49:47
But I was—

Reggie · 49:49
Or it's because he didn't get what he wanted in his lunchbox.

Tim · 49:52
He's like, why didn't you wait until I woke up to make my lunch? You slept too long to be involved in your lunch-making process. But I said— I just said— this is embarrassing. I said, stop crying because you're ruining your day. I said, it's just a lunch. The corn's in there. If you want it, you can eat it at lunch. If you don't want it, you don't have to eat it at lunch. But it's in there now and you're making your whole life miserable right now.

Reggie · 50:20
I think that's totally valid. I think you—

Tim · 50:21
Because I didn't want to to shut him down, but I just felt like he was, he was coughing and he's like, like getting all like intense.

Ricardo · 50:28
What did he do?

Tim · 50:31
He was heaving like he was, he was in a bad state and I didn't want him. But this is maybe selfish. I didn't want him to feel that way. Or maybe I didn't want myself. Maybe this is more of a reflection. I didn't want myself to feel the way I feel when he cries. And so I didn't want him to cry because he had— we were just literally, I woke him up. I— sometimes I end up being fun in the morning. Like, I held him and I said, you're an egg and you have a floppy head. And so I woke him up in joy, like he was laughing while his eyes are closed. And so we were spinning in the living room. So we had this really beautiful morning, and then it turns into this stupid lunch problem.

Reggie · 51:06
Yeah.

Tim · 51:06
Where now he's crying after we had this beautiful morning. And I was like, why choose this moment to let it all fall apart? But maybe there was— he was expressing an emotion that was coming from somewhere else and had nothing to do with the lunch.

Reggie · 51:19
No, I think as a dad—

Tim · 51:20
And I shut it down. Like, I feel like that's not good.

Reggie · 51:23
No, I think as a dad, because I do that in a sense where I— when my kids, not necessarily they're crying, but they are choosing to be really upset about something that to me seems trivial. And so I try to be compassionate and understand that in their world it's a bit bigger than it is for me, but I also don't want it to derail their whole day. That's what I feel like. Over this thing, like, this isn't the thing that's worth derailing your whole day.

Tim · 51:49
But is that like a father linear function?

Reggie · 51:52
Totally valid.

Ricardo · 51:53
I think that might be a protection. I think it's a total protection and you want them to be happy and enjoy the morning.

Tim · 52:00
Thank you. This is what I wanted to hear. Keep saying all this stuff. I feel better now.

Reggie · 52:04
I'm right there with you. I think that's a It's a valid feeling.

Tim · 52:06
As a mom.

Jeannie · 52:08
As a mom. Well, I mean, my approach— I wasn't there, right? It depends on your child, but most likely I would've taken a moment, like, tried to comfort them and say, you know, let's— I know you feel bad about this, but let's try to move on. And, you know, maybe same thing.

Tim · 52:34
Let's try to move on instead of just like, stop crying. Why would you ruin your day like this? That's not—

Ricardo · 52:39
I think about what my mom would have said. She would have been like, what the hell are you crying about?

Tim · 52:44
She'd backhand you.

Ricardo · 52:48
Right, right.

Tim · 52:49
I'll give you something to cry about. Legitimately.

Reggie · 52:54
I'll give you something to cry about.

Ricardo · 52:56
Like my mom would They would've looked at me sideways like, what the hell are you doing? Gotta get you to school.

Reggie · 53:01
But see, if we were doing it right, we would've gone to our parents and said, hey, I need something to cry about. It's been a while.

Tim · 53:08
I need to practice.

Reggie · 53:09
Something to cry about.

Ricardo · 53:11
Get the belt. I'll give you— yeah.

Tim · 53:12
Oh man. It's like you're crying, there is something to cry about, and then a parent says, I'll give you something to cry about.

Reggie · 53:18
Oh, it does.

Tim · 53:19
Doesn't it seem like the most ridiculous thing?

Reggie · 53:22
Yeah. As a kid, she'd be like, no, I already got something to cry about.

Ricardo · 53:26
Don't be too hard on yourself, man. Yeah.

Reggie · 53:30
Yeah, seriously. Don't feel bad about it.

Tim · 53:32
Yeah. I mean, is there any way to raise a child where you don't regret anything?

Ricardo · 53:35
No, absolutely not.

Reggie · 53:37
No, absolutely not. There is no parent ever.

Tim · 53:40
We're human and I feel like it's like a constant daily failing.

Ricardo · 53:43
I think there's no way to have a relationship where you don't regret something.

Reggie · 53:47
Oh, absolutely. Any kind of relationship, right?

Ricardo · 53:50
Exactly. Yeah. And hopefully that person accepts it.

Reggie · 53:55
And hope that you grow from it.

Tim · 53:56
Yeah.

Jeannie · 53:57
Excuse me.

Reggie · 53:58
Yeah. I mean, I think that's— if you grow from it, that's the best thing that you can do.

Ricardo · 54:01
I feel like—

Tim · 54:02
He's just so free with his crying, and that makes me jealous.

Reggie · 54:05
Oh, yeah.

Tim · 54:07
Because you can't do it. He can cry. No. We're going to work on your crying. In this moment, it made me angry that he was going to lose such a good morning that he was having. So I did really want him to have a good morning. But maybe I'm not— maybe I'm judging crying as being a bad morning. Like, maybe I relate that experience he's having as a bad thing.

Reggie · 54:28
Well, think about it though.

Tim · 54:29
What if it's not? What if—

Reggie · 54:30
That's like the angry, frustrated crying though. That's not like the good, like, release.

Tim · 54:35
But is there a good and a bad release?

Reggie · 54:36
Oh, I say I think so. Absolutely.

Tim · 54:38
But if it's an emotional thing—

Reggie · 54:39
If you're crying because, for instance, if you're crying because your fingers got slammed in the car door, That's not the best release. You're just like, ah, that hurts so bad. But if you're crying because, you know, you finally accomplish getting this Lego set put together and you just have this moment where you're like, that took me fucking weeks to do, that took me weeks or months to do, and like, oh my God, the sense of accomplishment, I'm so overjoyed. Like, totally there's different levels of crying.

Tim · 55:10
But that's the thing though, can we even track all the levels of that crying is an applicable or an emotional response to it. That's what the mystery— I was thinking the mystery is so vast when it comes to crying. No one really knows what it does or where it comes from because it applies to so many emotions.

Reggie · 55:27
So many.

Tim · 55:28
And they can't relate it directly to like your muscles get bigger when you cry, or they can say it makes you feel better, but there's not like— it's not something you get. This is the thing with science. Science always wants proof.

Reggie · 55:40
They want to be taught.

Tim · 55:40
And they want it to be real, but then you grow up after learning science through middle school and high school and elementary school all the way through, and you're like, this is the way it is. And all of a sudden they're like, oh, sorry, we got a better microscope and that's not really the way it is. Sorry that we taught you it was the facts, but now we have something else and now it's not true. Science tries to put its hand on it and say, now we understand it, but it always constantly is changing. Crying is the same thing. You can't put your handle on why this person is responding this way. And sometimes I can't even, and I think it's one thing, but what if it's just like life has this array of experiences happening, thoughts, emotions, some things you didn't even consciously process when it happened as a young kid, or maybe as a— whatever it is, and it's just coming back in your memory. You can't even remember it, but the emotion is still there.

Jeannie · 56:34
Mm-hmm.

Tim · 56:35
And that's the mystery. What if you look into the face of that mystery and hold it?

Ricardo · 56:39
I think it's what you're saying kind of goes to what you said earlier about emotion, grief being malleable, that we want to deal in absolutes, which I think people, people look at science as an absolute when it really isn't. It's just what we know now. Yeah. So yeah, I think, I think holding that and understanding like, hey, these emotions are malleable. Like we can sort of change how we look at this. We can change our perspective and outlook from like you had an outlook this morning, so now you're processing it and now you're changing.

Tim · 57:16
Live on the podcast.

Ricardo · 57:18
Yeah. Way to get down to earth. I think holding space for things to not be absolute. Yeah. To kind of how we can—

Reggie · 57:26
Be flexible and let it be.

Ricardo · 57:26
Understand these things a little bit. it a little better. And, you know, the more cliché thing, the more you know, the less you know, or whatever. However, that's true, you know. But like, the more we understand, the less we understand. I think that's true for everything throughout life. Um, yeah, I don't know.

Reggie · 57:42
What if we leaned into crying as a necessary release so much that somebody created an app that allowed you to like— yeah, it takes you through a whole like thing where Just makes— just takes you there, gives you all these things to cry about.

Tim · 57:58
Crying?

Reggie · 57:59
We have an app for that. It's called I'll Give You Something to Cry About. It's Heartwater trademark. Heartwater. I like that.

Ricardo · 58:07
You release your tears on a little roller coaster. Yeah. It just gives you beautiful imagery.

Reggie · 58:14
Yeah. It's good music, perfect tearjerker music, and beautiful imagery that just Makes you—

Tim · 58:21
but this reminds me of—

Reggie · 58:23
I would love that.

Tim · 58:23
No, you like this idea? You're feeling it?

Ricardo · 58:25
No, this reminds me— no, this reminded me of something that the— almost the manufacturing of connectivity and emotions. I don't know if you all have seen this. It kind of bugs me out. I don't like it. I don't know how to feel about it. My initial feeling is I don't like it. I could see that there might be good applications for it. But a company, either Japanese or Chinese, I forget, created an AI pet that looks like it just— it kind of looks like a guinea pig. All it has are little eyes. Yeah. And apparently it learns your habits and emotions.

Tim · 59:04
It's like a physical pet.

Ricardo · 59:06
It's like a physical little thing.

Tim · 59:08
Like a little robot.

Reggie · 59:08
Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's got fur on it and everything. It has fur.

Tim · 59:12
It doesn't—

Ricardo · 59:12
it has little eyes.

Tim · 59:13
Oh my goodness.

Ricardo · 59:14
It makes little pet noises, purrs, little murmurs.

Jeannie · 59:18
Yeah.

Ricardo · 59:19
I don't know how to feel about it.

Tim · 59:21
Do they give it to—

Ricardo · 59:22
For anyone.

Tim · 59:24
Because have you ever seen this thing with people with dementia? They can't take care of animals because they forget and they don't have the process to take care of them. So they started, you know, those cats that are like, curled up in their bed and you can see their stomach moving, those little—

Ricardo · 59:40
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim · 59:41
It's like a little thing you can buy. They get these for these people with dementia and they don't know that they're not real, but it makes them feel like there's a pet and there's a thing with them. And I wonder if this is— if it's— I can see it being implemented in that way, or I can see it going to everyone.

Ricardo · 1:00:00
Yes, they're marketing it to everyone. That's why I say like I can see good applications for it. But the commercial is marketing to everyone. It's children.

Tim · 1:00:10
But you remember those pets that kids used to have and they feed them? What were those things? Tamagotchis? Tamagotchis.

Ricardo · 1:00:16
Tamagotchis.

Tim · 1:00:16
Tamagotchis. Yeah, yeah. Hyper advanced. It's an advanced—

Ricardo · 1:00:20
yeah, like it— like I saw that commercial and I instantly, like, my instant reaction—

Tim · 1:00:26
You cried?

Ricardo · 1:00:26
Shudder. I thought you were crying.

Reggie · 1:00:28
No, I can't believe they have this.

Ricardo · 1:00:32
There could be that application where it's useful for people with dementia, elderly, maybe young kids to teach them responsibility. But then also I see sort of an almost fabrication of emotional connectivity.

Tim · 1:00:45
And imagine they'll never lose that pet.

Ricardo · 1:00:47
Unless you don't charge it.

Tim · 1:00:49
Well, you just plug it in. Think about the practice of grief when you lose a pet.

Reggie · 1:00:55
Oh yeah.

Tim · 1:00:56
In the first place, as a child, Learns about grief. And my— I remember I got Lila a hamster, not realizing they have really short lifespans. And like, I never wanted to get an animal because of the losing of an animal is so intense. So we bought her something, didn't even research, and their lifespan is shortened by putting them in captivity.

Reggie · 1:01:15
Oh yeah. We built this huge cage for it.

Tim · 1:01:17
Like, my wife went into this crazy thing, built this massive cage, went all the way to the ground. It was like 2.5 feet high and 5 feet wide.

Reggie · 1:01:26
Oh, wow.

Tim · 1:01:26
Just because they burrow, they like to dig down in. So you provide all this stuff that they can dig into.

Reggie · 1:01:31
Yeah.

Tim · 1:01:31
When it died, it was sad.

Reggie · 1:01:35
Yeah.

Tim · 1:01:36
And so when you— if you have a thing that you never have to lose, you never get to even confront grief.

Reggie · 1:01:43
Which is human. Which I don't know, though. I think that's a healthy way of learning how to grieve.

Tim · 1:01:49
No, I don't think so.

Reggie · 1:01:49
Yeah, when you lose a pet.

Tim · 1:01:51
I thought you meant having this thing was the only way.

Reggie · 1:01:54
No, no, no. I don't think you should avoid grieving. I think that that is our first— I lost a pet when I was young and oh my God, I probably cried for days because it was one of those things where probably the one bad thing my grandmother ever did was she told me, she sent me off with some friends and I'm like, hey, this is fun. I was having so much fun. When I came back, my dog was gone. I was like, wait, what happened? And she had had him taken away to the pound because he kept jumping up.

Tim · 1:02:27
Because we were raised poor.

Reggie · 1:02:29
We had clotheslines in the back. And so she would put her sheets up and he would jump up and grab the sheets and it drove her nuts. So she actually sent me away for the day. And then I came back and my pet was gone. And I was grieved.

Tim · 1:02:45
Yes.

Reggie · 1:02:45
I went through the whole thing.

Jeannie · 1:02:48
Yeah.

Reggie · 1:02:49
So I think that was a really healthy way of understanding grief and feeling it in a way that when you get older, you're familiar with it. It's not a stranger.

Ricardo · 1:02:59
Yeah, that happened when I was little. We had a—

Tim · 1:03:03
How old were you when you—

Ricardo · 1:03:05
Maybe like 5 or 6.

Tim · 1:03:07
How old were you?

Reggie · 1:03:08
I was probably 8 or 9.

Ricardo · 1:03:09
Yeah, maybe 5.

Reggie · 1:03:11
He was my super dog and I was the Boy Wonder. And we would run around the yard together. I had my cape on. That's so sad. Yeah, it was horribly sad.

Tim · 1:03:23
We might all cry on this episode. That is so sad to me.

Reggie · 1:03:26
Yeah, it was absolutely absurd.

Ricardo · 1:03:28
Yeah, pets are— yeah, my cat, Sir Lester, like he— cats—

Jeannie · 1:03:33
Sir Lester.

Ricardo · 1:03:33
Yeah, as cats do.

Reggie · 1:03:35
Sir Lester.

Ricardo · 1:03:35
He sort of left the house and didn't come back, and I didn't understand. And my parents were like, he was old and he went off to die peacefully. Like, that's what you're like.

Reggie · 1:03:46
No. Yeah, what cats do.

Ricardo · 1:03:47
Yeah. And I was like, oh, okay. I like didn't have— because I was so young. Yeah. Yeah. Like my memories of him are really short. Yeah. But then we got another cat, Monroe. We got our— we had a dog, Tootsie, that again, like, I didn't like— I didn't have so much of a connection with her. But then we got our dog Ozzy.

Reggie · 1:04:07
Yeah.

Ricardo · 1:04:08
I remember Monroe one time. got out because they were out, like we let them out, like they're indoor-outdoor cats. Yeah, and he didn't come back for almost a week.

Reggie · 1:04:18
Wow.

Ricardo · 1:04:19
Oh my god, like, and I was maybe in 4th or 5th grade when this happened.

Tim · 1:04:23
Probably triggered some deeper—

Ricardo · 1:04:25
God, like I remember going outside and like yelling for him.

Reggie · 1:04:28
Looking. Oh, he came back.

Tim · 1:04:30
No way, after a week?

Ricardo · 1:04:31
Something happened to him. His leg was messed up. We, we think we had a We had a neighbor.

Reggie · 1:04:38
A neighbor. I wonder if you were going to say that.

Ricardo · 1:04:40
Yeah, there was a neighbor in the neighborhood who like just was a weird—

Tim · 1:04:43
sketchy like that.

Ricardo · 1:04:44
My dad tried to like a couple of times like catch him slipping, like, oh wow, get you and fuck you up.

Reggie · 1:04:50
Yeah.

Tim · 1:04:51
Yikes. Yeah. Um, good thing he came back.

Ricardo · 1:04:54
Yeah, he was a, he was a weird cat. We had a couple of those, the cat being the neighbor, weird cat being the neighbor. But we had a couple. Yeah, yeah. Like, like, I remember, I like, I was I remember just going out before school every day while he was gone and just—

Reggie · 1:05:09
Looking for your cat.

Ricardo · 1:05:10
Like screaming.

Tim · 1:05:12
You were dealing with that feeling for the whole week.

Ricardo · 1:05:14
Yeah. And he came back. I remember being so happy. Oh, so happy.

Reggie · 1:05:18
I had a cat live to 21, and it was incredibly sad when he passed away because we had to put him down. His kidneys were failing. He was in pain, and it was the right thing to do. But my— all of my kids were born into a world where he existed. And I literally got him in college. And when I was—

Tim · 1:05:41
This is a Marley movie.

Reggie · 1:05:42
25 years— I was 25 years old. I got him in college and he would sit at my feet while I was doing design projects, pulling all-nighters. He'd be right there either on my lap or at my feet, keeping me company while I was like working. And he was with me for— in every house that I lived in after I left home. So my first apartment, and then the last place we rented before I bought my first house. And he's buried in the yard at the last place we rented.

Jeannie · 1:06:15
Mm.

Reggie · 1:06:15
So every place I rented, he had a home there. From St. Louis, like 3 places in St. Louis, to like multiple places here in Asheville. And when, like, yeah, it hit me pretty hard. Like, I had to go somewhere and just like sit and like cry because I had all these memories of him.

Tim · 1:06:34
Yeah.

Reggie · 1:06:34
And he was such a— he was one of the most amazing cats I've ever met. He was just super social, super lovable, super— people would come to the house and he would come and check them out like, oh yeah, I know you. And he'd like purr and hang out with them. Or he'd be like, I don't know you, and he'd go back to business. But he was that kind of super cool cat. People would like come over and be like, I'm not here for you, where's Bolero? You know, they want to come and hang out with my cat. So it was just— it was an era.

Tim · 1:07:04
I experienced my first pet loss where I felt the emotion at like 25 years old.

Reggie · 1:07:09
Wow.

Tim · 1:07:10
I don't know how it took me so long to get this experience, but—

Reggie · 1:07:14
25.

Tim · 1:07:15
Yeah, we had a cat called Joey. little tiny tabby cat. And I wasn't even a cat person. My wife was like, we're getting a cat. I was like, okay. And I fell in love with this cat. It was the sweetest, tiniest little cat. When I would get up and get ready for work, he would like talk to me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would talk to him and he would talk back. And I had this really close connection with him. And he got out one rainy day and got hit. And we found him because he wasn't out and we're looking for him, calling him because he's always around. That's the worst. I found him up by the road just there, and I freaking fell apart.

Reggie · 1:07:55
Oh, I'm sure.

Tim · 1:07:56
I was almost like— my wife, both, both of us were nauseous and like in our bathroom. We didn't even go anywhere for like 3 days. And I got this feeling because my dad was raised on a farm, but I got this feeling from my dad that I was overreacting.

Reggie · 1:08:10
Oh, he did? He give you—

Tim · 1:08:12
Yeah, like it's just a cat. It was just a cat. So it's weird because that sounds like a story you have when you're 9 or 10 versus 25. And I was—

Reggie · 1:08:20
That's not even an acceptable phrase. It's just a cat.

Tim · 1:08:24
But he grew up on a farm where animals were animals and they're outside and they die and we use them for milk and whatever, meat. And I had made this cat a part of our family. We had no kids yet.

Reggie · 1:08:37
It was a part of your family.

Tim · 1:08:38
Yeah. And so that That experience is why I never got my kids a pet. And my daughter was like, Dad, why won't you let us get a pet? And I'd be like, just because it's too much work.

Reggie · 1:08:48
But deep inside—

Tim · 1:08:50
One day I was driving to work and I started bawling. And I called Megan and I said, we have to get a cat. She's like, why? I was like, because it's only because I'm afraid that we're not getting one. I'm afraid of losing something again.

Reggie · 1:09:04
You had that realization.

Tim · 1:09:06
And I had to tell her. why I'd never let her have a cat before. And so we got 2 cats.

Ricardo · 1:09:11
Yeah.

Tim · 1:09:12
And one of them got hit by a car.

Jeannie · 1:09:13
Oh no.

Tim · 1:09:14
And so I got to experience— and I had to take him. He was in bad shape. Came home. He made it home, but his face was all destroyed and he was limping and he was breathing weird. And we were just waiting for him to die, but he wasn't dying. He's just in pain. Kids were at school and I'm like, what is happening? This is why I didn't get a cat. I'm having these feelings. And so I take it to the vet and they're like, his face is too broken. You can't put this back together. And so they had to put him down. And so I brought him home in a box. And so we had this little service over him so the kids could see him. And it was a really powerful moment to have that, to be there with them.

Reggie · 1:09:57
To grieve together.

Tim · 1:09:57
Right. To grieve together.

Reggie · 1:09:59
Yeah.

Tim · 1:09:59
To lose something together.

Reggie · 1:10:01
Yeah.

Tim · 1:10:01
And it was one day after he was born. Wow. It was this crazy moment. Like, our son, our youngest son enters the world. The next day, Smokey leaves.

Reggie · 1:10:14
Smokey.

Tim · 1:10:15
And so I, I don't even know if I would take back the moment because of how mysterious it is. Like, why? Why the timing? why that even happens. Like, why does pain happen? Why do we have to go through these things? But I was there to go through it with them. Yeah. And I was there to face something that I was afraid of facing. And it was okay. I love that. It was like this beautiful circle.

Reggie · 1:10:43
That's growth right there. Yeah.

Ricardo · 1:10:45
And that's just emotions being malleable. Like, you had this connection when you were 25 to this feeling, and then processed it, and then you're ready to sort of, okay, I can not deal with it, but—

Tim · 1:10:58
But I can be here in it.

Ricardo · 1:10:59
I can, I can accept it and then now bring this back into my life.

Tim · 1:11:03
And now I let it in.

Reggie · 1:11:04
And no longer be afraid of it.

Tim · 1:11:07
And my kids will now say, that's the only time I've seen you cry. I'm like, oh my God.

Reggie · 1:11:10
Oh, really?

Tim · 1:11:11
They say, you start crying when you're awake.

Reggie · 1:11:12
That's the only time I've seen you cry.

Tim · 1:11:13
I usually cry in the car and late at night.

Reggie · 1:11:15
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim · 1:11:16
Like driving to work or something, like listening to A song or a podcast. I want my— you never saw your dad cry and you were still able to cry.

Reggie · 1:11:26
I never saw him cry.

Tim · 1:11:26
So it's not a lost cause.

Ricardo · 1:11:27
No, not at all.

Reggie · 1:11:29
Instead of working out tomorrow, we're going to get the yoga mats out and we're just going to try to cry. And be like, all right, Tim, think of the saddest thing ever.

Tim · 1:11:38
I mean, think about how mysterious this is. You can practice yoga, you can practice meditation, but can you practice crying? Maybe.

Reggie · 1:11:45
No, maybe if you're an actor or an actress, you're like, you're an actor, you have to do it, right?

Ricardo · 1:11:49
Tapping in, tapping into that emotion to trigger it. Yeah.

Tim · 1:11:52
This does bring a question I wanted to ask you, Reggie, because you said something about a time, if there's a right time to cry. Like, should someone cry at work? Yeah. Should someone be able to cry at work? Absolutely.

Jeannie · 1:12:05
I— so I was worried about getting back to work and getting hit with emotion. Yeah. And I said, I I, I asked my boss, I'm like, you know, I'm afraid of getting in front of a client and then like losing my shit and crying. He's like, and so what would be the worst thing that could happen?

Tim · 1:12:27
Nice. Like, we're human. What a boss. Yeah. Yeah.

Ricardo · 1:12:30
You have a great boss. Yeah. There's— at my last job that I had, there was someone who got hired. Not going to say any names. Um, but for their first few weeks, several weeks, they would go— he would go out into the hallways in the building and like cry or have like really like— I don't want to say a breakdown because then it's sort of a negative connotation, but like that's what it kind of seemed like, right? And everyone like— and then he was like, I have to go home. And it happened for several weeks to the point where people became like, dude, what are you doing? Like, how old was he? My age. Like, at the time, like, you know, I'm 41 now. At the time, yeah, 35, mid-30s, early— I don't know how time— time is not— I don't know what time is, however old I was when I worked there 8, 7 years ago. But like, it got to a point where everyone noticed it in a way that our offices were set up. Like, if this was the building, creative had this space, and then across the hallway, say, where I thought you all were gonna move. Those were like the, the, the product developers and, and other people. And people from the product development side wouldn't notice and be like, what's up with this? Oh, wow.

Reggie · 1:13:46
What's going with this guy?

Tim · 1:13:47
Yeah.

Ricardo · 1:13:47
I'm like, no one knows.

Tim · 1:13:49
Um, it's funny cuz around the same age I had like a month, and this is when the thing about the pets came up in me. I had a month of crying on the way to work. It's like I thought I was having like a mental breakdown or like a psychological, something, and I was listening to this music, and I was looking up at the sky, and it was like everything at once was happening in me. And I had these crazy visions while it was happening. So I don't know what he was going through, but I don't know if that's what they call a midlife crisis. But there's something breaking in us. I think it's the softening. I think you can't go on hardened. Like, I don't think you can move through life hard, hardened in yourself.

Reggie · 1:14:31
Yeah.

Tim · 1:14:31
So I had this vision while I was having these crying, and I'd pull it together before I went to work. So it was happening on the way after I dropped the kids off, and then I just cry to work, sit in the truck parking lot, cry there, and then I'd walk in and try to pull it together. But I had this— I can only explain it as a vision, but I was sitting in the car and I saw my heart like this hardened, tight, calloused ball inside of my chest.

Reggie · 1:14:58
Mm.

Tim · 1:15:00
And some being, maybe God, it was, I believe it was God, but whatever you want to call it, said, I want to break you. And I was like, it sounds terrible. And I've seen my parents go through stuff. They were pastors in a church, and that was pretty brutal at times. And I was like, no. And he's like, wait, no, I want to break you out.

Reggie · 1:15:19
Oh.

Tim · 1:15:19
And it was like, I was like, okay, do it. And he like karate chopped my heart. Broke it, and it cracked into 2 halves, and inside was like this opalescent undulating thing.

Ricardo · 1:15:34
Wow.

Jeannie · 1:15:34
Interesting.

Tim · 1:15:35
Like this formless moving ball of goo.

Reggie · 1:15:39
Yeah.

Tim · 1:15:40
That was moving around, and I saw it, and it started growing bigger, and it started filling up my body, and then it like surpassed my body, and it went outside of my body, and it kept growing, and it was as big as the parking lot, and And then it grew bigger and it started getting bigger faster and it started going down the streets.

Jeannie · 1:15:56
Like the blob?

Tim · 1:15:57
This blob, this heart thing.

Jeannie · 1:15:59
Heart blob.

Tim · 1:16:00
Yes. It started growing massive and it went down the streets and I actually saw like it was— people could see it and they would try to like, like attack it or hit it and it just goes around them. It would hold them.

Reggie · 1:16:12
That's the blob.

Tim · 1:16:13
The blob.

Reggie · 1:16:14
That's the steam.

Tim · 1:16:16
And it kept going and it covered the city. And then it got as big as the world. This is happening in my— in whatever I'm going through.

Reggie · 1:16:22
In your consciousness.

Tim · 1:16:23
And then it went really big past the universe that I knew. And all of a sudden, it went— and it became one with something else, like this being.

Reggie · 1:16:32
Oh, how interesting.

Tim · 1:16:33
And it was like I felt settled. And it was the first time, and I said in myself, I was like, oh, that's what death is. And then I was like— and the thing I was struggling with, with this cat, was not the cat. It was losing my kids.

Reggie · 1:16:46
Yeah.

Tim · 1:16:47
You've experienced this, and it's my worst nightmare.

Reggie · 1:16:48
Yeah.

Tim · 1:16:49
But I saw them do this same experience right on the heels of me. They grew big, their heart grew big, and they joined me in the one. And it was this— and all of a sudden, it was the first time and the only time probably that I've not been afraid of them dying.

Reggie · 1:17:03
Wow.

Tim · 1:17:03
Because it was this different, this different understanding of what death is. It was like becoming one with the one. And since that moment, I've always imagined my heart— and it's weird you say this, but the softness. I've always imagined my heart is soft, and it isn't limited. And that is what's inside. I think that's inside of all of us. That's the mystery.

Ricardo · 1:17:29
Yeah. I mean, and yeah, that's beautiful. I don't— yeah, I'm gonna sit here and just say it. I don't have anything really to add to that, honestly.

Reggie · 1:17:37
That's a beautiful That is a beautiful sentiment.

Jeannie · 1:17:39
That is a beautiful sentiment.

Ricardo · 1:17:39
That's a spiritual awakening.

Reggie · 1:17:40
I love that.

Tim · 1:17:41
It was, and I felt that that fearlessness, that ability to not be afraid of death, was the thing that allowed me to start feeling. Because I said, this is what people must feel like when they die alone. And when I grew up, it was called, you know, they called it like being saved.

Ricardo · 1:17:57
Right.

Tim · 1:17:57
I grew up thinking like, I have to be saved, I'm gonna go to hell. And so I always thought about this weird abstract concept. But what I think I felt in that moment was what it means to be saved is to be open and to let people love you and to be loved. But when you are hardened inside, you can't love anybody and you can't feel love. And I was afraid of death and my kids dying and all these things. And so I hardened.

Reggie · 1:18:20
Impenetrable.

Tim · 1:18:21
Right. It's impenetrable and you can't— nothing gets in.

Reggie · 1:18:23
Love that. Love that sentiment of softening and letting people in.

Tim · 1:18:29
Yeah. And to live and to continue living open, like to stay open.

Reggie · 1:18:33
This was about to be— I was going to say that this was going to be known as the sad episode, but I think you just brought it all back. I think to be able to be in touch with your emotions in that way means to be truly open to being able to feel, to being able to like accept. I think that's a really beautiful way to end this episode. Guys, thanks so much for coming and sitting and talking with us today. This is great. Yeah, it's been awesome having you both here. As always, thanks for tuning in. We really appreciate you taking the time to spend it— taking this very valuable time of your own to spend with us. And we look forward to seeing you on the next episode where we'll see what we pull out of the trash can next. Bye.

Tim · 1:19:20
Stay open. That's a cheesy way to end it.

Reggie · 1:19:24
I like it. No, that was great.

Ricardo · 1:19:27
That was great, man.

Reggie · 1:19:29
Yeah. What a great conversation.

Tim · 1:19:31
Very inspiring.

Reggie · 1:19:34
Yeah.

Jeannie · 1:19:35
I feel like I couldn't not say it.

Reggie · 1:19:37
Thanks for listening. This podcast was created and developed by our hosts, Reggie Tidwell, Tim Scroggs, Mary Greene, and Dylan Garcia. Special thanks to our guest hosts, Jeannie Adair and Ricardo Tejeda. Produced by Mary Greene.

Ricardo · 1:19:55
Live production and editing by me, Will Canady.

Reggie · 1:19:58
Graphic design by Dylan Garcia and set design by Megan Scroggs.

Tim · 1:20:03
Today's episode is presented lovingly by 40 Hearts, creators of enduring value. Science, like soccer, is a game of inches. Many shots miss, but the ones that land change everything. Trial after trial, we fall, we rise, we go again. When the stakes are this real, victory must belong to patience. That's why Bristol-Myers Squibb won't lose. Learn more at bmswontelose.com.