Ep.
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Hustle Culture, Balance & The Success We're Redefining
Sixty-four minutes later we had established that we can all explain the science of rest in some detail, and that not one of us is doing it. One of us has the blood pressure to prove it.
Transcript
Machine transcribed and lightly corrected, so expect a few misheard words.
Reggie · 0:02
Tim, what was your favorite part?
Tim · 0:03
I'm gonna break the rules. I had 2 favorite parts. One, the first one's funny because we talked about this French word. You'll get what I mean when you watch it. Oh, I'm so sorry, Mary. I should have done the other one. And the other one, maybe I shouldn't do the other one. I'll let someone else take it unless it's the part George said at the end.
Reggie · 0:22
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Will, what was your favorite part?
Will · 0:24
I like Reggie's relationship advice.
Mary · 0:26
Nice.
George · 0:26
I thought it was hilarious.
Reggie · 0:27
Wow, yes, love that. George, what was your favorite part?
George · 0:29
Honestly, it was sitting on these couches with smart, funny people and laughing our asses off. That was my favorite part.
Reggie · 0:35
I love that. Mary, what was your favorite part?
Mary · 0:40
Tim took mine. I'm— my favorite part was just being with the creative force that is George and him reminding me of all the beautiful things that theater taught me. And like I said, you're so much more than that, George, but you really like stood for that for me today.
Reggie · 0:56
Thank you. I love that.
Mary · 0:57
What about you, Reggie?
Reggie · 0:58
You know, my favorite part was us being able to thrive through all the technical difficulties we had today. Yes.
Mary · 1:05
Thank you, Will, our hero.
Tim · 1:07
Thank you for getting us through it.
Mary · 1:09
Yeah.
George · 1:20
Thanks, Will.
Tim · 1:26
Welcome to episode 13 of Age. This is a podcast where we pull a random topic out of a trash— oh no, 13.
Reggie · 1:33
Sorry. I was gonna say 13.
Tim · 1:35
I didn't hear that. Welcome to episode 17.
George · 1:38
Throwback.
Tim · 1:38
You know what? I was hearing what I was hearing.
Mary · 1:40
He was trying to travel back in time.
Reggie · 1:43
It's 18.
Tim · 1:44
What was 13? I'm gonna look at what 13 was and see what it is.
George · 1:46
My brain is opening for a podcast called Age.
Reggie · 1:48
This one is 18.
George · 1:49
Just forgot the number.
Mary · 1:50
Like, how long have you been here?
George · 1:52
Perfect.
Tim · 1:52
17.
Reggie · 1:53
17. 18.
Tim · 1:55
18. See, that's why we have Will here. Right there. Right there. Back there.
Mary · 1:58
I think you're the only one who's been present for every episode of Age.
Reggie · 2:03
And you don't even know which one it is.
Tim · 2:05
Will, you lost? That's why I need Will over there.
Reggie · 2:07
You've been in so many of them, you lost track.
Tim · 2:10
Lost track.
Reggie · 2:11
Oh my God. Yeah.
Tim · 2:12
So back to episode 18 of Age. And as I was saying, this is a podcast where we pull a random topic out of a trash can. And it originally started with 4 of us, and Dylan used to be here, and we love Dylan, and Dylan had to move away, and we want to tell her that we love her where she is, and she had to step away from the podcast.
Reggie · 2:34
We love you, Dylan. We miss you.
Tim · 2:35
We are with you, and anytime you want to come back on, we will bring you on.
Mary · 2:38
And everybody should continue to follow Dylan because she is like the primary influencer in my life right now.
Tim · 2:45
Yeah.
George · 2:45
Constantly.
Reggie · 2:45
Yeah.
Tim · 2:46
Keyword for Dylan is kick-ass.
Reggie · 2:47
She is definitely one to watch.
Tim · 2:49
Yeah. Yeah. We miss her big time.
Mary · 2:51
She's like renovating a She's what, 22, 23? And she's like renovating a house in Western Carolina.
Reggie · 2:57
On 80 acres of land. She's 22 going on like 45.
George · 3:01
Yeah. Well, as Dylan's understudy, that's a lot of pressure. Yeah.
Tim · 3:05
We're holding auditions.
Mary · 3:06
We're cycling people through.
Reggie · 3:08
I can barely take care of her at home.
Tim · 3:10
How many acres you got? And George has a great point. Dylan is a hard seat to fill. And so we have decided to make this a rotating chair where we bring people in we love. people from the community, visitors, people we know from around this country. And today we have George Awad, or how do you say it in your—
George · 3:28
Oh, Awad, or Awad, or sometimes on my mail, Award.
Tim · 3:33
Yes.
Reggie · 3:34
The George Award. I want the George Award.
George · 3:37
I'm a multi-time winner of the George Award.
Reggie · 3:40
Yes.
George · 3:40
Unfortunately, many of them.
Reggie · 3:41
Incredible.
Tim · 3:42
Okay, so before we pull a topic, I just want to ask you one question just so people can get to know you a little bit.
George · 3:46
Yeah.
Tim · 3:47
What are you most obsessed with right now in your life?
George · 3:49
Ooh, what am I most obsessed with?
Tim · 3:55
It could be a show, it could be a toy, it could be a person.
Mary · 3:57
Yeah, current obsession is a good one.
George · 3:58
I think I'm too obsessed with selling tickets to shows.
Tim · 4:03
Look at that, you're nerding out on selling tickets.
George · 4:05
I know, because I got the app and I'm constantly refreshing it. I'm like, ooh, did that social boost do anything?
Mary · 4:11
Yeah.
Tim · 4:12
What show are you selling tickets to, or shows?
George · 4:15
Well, we have a really cool premiere show on Saturday called A Novel Approach, where we basically, myself and my 2 performers pals, we ask the audience for the name of a title of a book that doesn't exist and a genre. And then we have a narrator improviser.
Mary · 4:34
Mm-hmm.
George · 4:34
Who is the frustrated writer who's trying to write a book with the audience, but he's also like, pushing us along and screwing with us and really literally writing the narrative on the spot.
Reggie · 4:47
Love this.
George · 4:48
And the music and small— and those slight costumes.
Tim · 4:51
I love this.
Reggie · 4:52
Wait, where is this gonna be?
George · 4:53
At NC Stage, 7:30 PM.
Reggie · 4:55
Nice. I love Charlie and Angie.
George · 4:58
Yeah, you guys should come out.
Tim · 4:59
This is why George had improviser on his title, right? Producer.
Mary · 5:05
One of many.
Tim · 5:05
Designer. Improviser. And then you can probably keep going after that because once you open up improviser, it's like it's an open playing field.
Reggie · 5:14
President, plumber.
George · 5:17
Yeah.
Mary · 5:17
But the creative dilemma, right? Like, is there one thing that can hold all of— if you're creative, that's kind of the point, is that you get to work across different mediums. Yeah.
Tim · 5:26
Especially in this world.
Reggie · 5:27
Yeah, absolutely.
Tim · 5:28
It's kind of a challenge of—
George · 5:30
Yeah. Nobody's like just a woodworker anymore. No, they're all these other things.
Mary · 5:35
At minimum, a marketer.
Tim · 5:37
Yeah, ticket salesman.
Reggie · 5:39
I think that's all we—
George · 5:41
enjoy the show.
Mary · 5:42
Can I tell you though? Just on the topic of ticket sales and how you get them. I went— I was in Japan recently with my partner's family, and his brother is really into taiko drumming. I don't know if anybody's familiar with this. It's just this ancient—
Tim · 5:56
Oh, I think you're talking about that band that got popular in like 2010, Taiko.
Mary · 6:00
Maybe it was—
Tim · 6:01
Dive. They had this song Dive.
Reggie · 6:03
It's a guy. It's one guy. Yeah. Yeah, he's awesome. I saw him in Asheville.
Tim · 6:07
I've been trying to remember the name of this band for like a month now.
George · 6:10
Really?
Tim · 6:11
Yeah. And you brought it to me.
Reggie · 6:12
It's one of my favorite electronic musicians and he's a graphic designer. I saw him at the Gray Eagle when he came.
Tim · 6:19
Let's have him on.
Reggie · 6:20
Yeah.
Mary · 6:20
So Reggie.
Reggie · 6:21
Well, he doesn't live here.
Mary · 6:21
Reggie, what's happening?
Tim · 6:23
Yeah. Did you see the last episode we mentioned David Carson or the one before? And then Reggie posted it and he had said in the episode, you know David Carson? I was like, yeah, right. He's like, I do, bro. He posted on LinkedIn and David Carson liked it.
Reggie · 6:37
Oh, cool.
Tim · 6:39
For all those who knew David Carson.
Mary · 6:40
Episode incoming.
George · 6:41
Really? Ray Gun David Carson?
Tim · 6:42
Yes.
Reggie · 6:43
Yeah.
Tim · 6:44
Ray Gun David Carson liked the post?
Reggie · 6:45
I've known him for 20 years. He's a great guy. I will say this, there's nobody I don't think I would fake knowing.
Mary · 6:53
Oh, we know.
Reggie · 6:53
If I say it, I definitely know.
Mary · 6:55
It's just getting more and more ridiculous.
Reggie · 6:56
I just don't think there's anybody cool enough for me to lie about this guy.
Mary · 6:58
I'm just saying, we know you wouldn't lie, but it's getting ridiculous.
Tim · 7:01
For those of you who don't know Reggie yet, this is a Reggie Nostalgism where you're, you know, you just know someone random that's mentioned. You're like, yeah, we hung out.
Reggie · 7:07
You had a story you were telling.
Tim · 7:09
I know, taiko.
George · 7:10
Sorry.
Mary · 7:11
Nobody wants to go to this taiko performance because it looks kind of cheesy and like tourist trappy because they've got the actual performers from the taiko like troupe and they're actually very talented musicians. They're not just pretty boys, but they were pretty boys out on the sidewalk and they were like handing out free fans with like their thing on it. It was kind of like, what's the one? Will will know. Shen Yun? Is that what it's called? With the scarves and stuff? They had that.
George · 7:38
What is Shen Yun?
Mary · 7:39
Oh no.
Tim · 7:40
We're going down a hole now.
Mary · 7:41
Anyway, they took the performers from the show, and I'm sure it was part of their contract that they had to just stand outside the theater and look pretty and flirt with people and be like, you should come to the show later.
George · 7:52
Right.
Tim · 7:52
I mean, maybe Will can put a picture up when—
Mary · 7:55
Oh, we'll go try to find a Shen Yun picture. Shen Yun is a whole other Sorry. Okay.
Tim · 8:03
We'll get back to that.
Mary · 8:03
Silence.
Tim · 8:03
That deserved a moment of silence. So, on that shin-yin—
Reggie · 8:08
Shin-yang.
George · 8:09
Shin-yang.
Mary · 8:11
If only it were that simple, Reggie.
George · 8:13
It's cheesy.
Mary · 8:13
It goes too deep.
Tim · 8:14
Okay. It's funny because we do have this one still in here, but I know what it is.
Mary · 8:17
It's garbage.
Tim · 8:18
No, it isn't. It's really one.
Mary · 8:19
You wrote that?
Tim · 8:20
No. Someone threw it out when we had Juan on, and then we looked at it and it had something. I'm not going to tell you because you may pick it.
Reggie · 8:26
Yeah, I like this.
George · 8:28
I really thought that was legitimate garbage.
Reggie · 8:29
You have to take it out of there.
Mary · 8:30
It really looks like garbage.
Tim · 8:31
You're like, why does their set have a trash can with all my garbage on it?
George · 8:35
There's a banana peel in here.
Reggie · 8:36
Don't throw your coffee cup in there when you're done.
Tim · 8:38
I think it's part of the show that we like to put all these stream of consciousness topics. We just randomly wrote down like, I don't know, 50 in there.
George · 8:45
I love it.
Tim · 8:45
Then we just wadded them up and put them in there.
Reggie · 8:47
We A-wad them up.
George · 8:49
A.
Reggie · 8:50
A.
Tim · 8:52
As if to give us a starting point that isn't It's so high and lofty, but it's something just to start to understand each other and everything that we're discussing.
George · 9:02
Love it.
Tim · 9:02
It always leads to something pretty deep and having to do with identity.
Mary · 9:06
We should start forcing our guests to do one after the show, like to write down a topic for us.
Reggie · 9:12
Oh, Tim's happy.
Tim · 9:13
That's a great idea.
Reggie · 9:14
He's not gonna show us.
George · 9:15
Okay.
Mary · 9:16
We won't force you to do anything, George. Invite you.
Tim · 9:21
Hustle culture. This one is right on time.
George · 9:26
This is a good one.
Reggie · 9:28
Good one. Oh my gosh.
Tim · 9:29
Put it right here so we can dwell on it.
Mary · 9:32
Oh, that's smart.
Tim · 9:33
Why have we never done that before?
Reggie · 9:35
No, me neither. What comes to mind for you?
Tim · 9:38
Immediately, what's the—
George · 9:39
My life. I mean, really.
Tim · 9:42
My life.
George · 9:42
It really is that. I'm running 2 businesses at the same time.
Tim · 9:47
Okay, do you feel like your life had a moment of hustle culture and then had a break and then had now this new era of hustle culture?
George · 9:56
No, I think my life was unhustled up until probably when I started improv, to be honest with you.
Reggie · 10:04
Wow.
Mary · 10:04
That's a famous—
George · 10:05
Because I got into producing shows because there was nowhere to have shows. And then I kind of got into producing and I like it. I mean, I love it. But also there's sometimes you produce so much that you've produced yourself into a corner and you really just want to be on— you're like, I want to be on stage True.
Reggie · 10:20
Right?
Tim · 10:21
You ever had that feeling, Mary?
Mary · 10:24
I love being the talent, George.
George · 10:26
Yes, it's fun, right? It's fun. It's fun to show up, do it, and not have to lug lighting and an amp into the back of your car.
Mary · 10:36
I have no idea what that feels like. I've always been the amp lugger. If I was going to be on stage, it was always a combo deal. Yeah.
George · 10:44
But yeah.
Tim · 10:44
So the hustle really is Behind the scenes?
George · 10:47
A lot of hustle. I don't think a lot of people know what goes into— a lot of people don't know what goes into design and branding something, of course, but also a lot of people don't know what goes into putting up a show. It's not just, here's the ticket link and we've told 100 people.
Reggie · 11:02
No.
Mary · 11:02
A lot of actors don't know what goes into putting on a show. They're like, I'm on a show, and you're like, I'm working for 60 hours a week up until the date.
Tim · 11:10
It's not even just putting on the show. It's trying to get people to the show. Right. That's a whole other part of the hustle.
Reggie · 11:15
That's the biggest part.
Tim · 11:16
That's probably more than half the hustle.
Reggie · 11:17
Show doesn't matter if you don't have people there to see it.
Tim · 11:20
Yeah, because we're having a show here, but it's nowhere near what a live show has at an event with props and with crowds and all that stuff. So I can't even imagine.
George · 11:29
Like for the festival, we had an improv festival in May, and it was great. It went awesome.
Reggie · 11:34
We knew about this. We wanted to go.
George · 11:37
Thanks for coming. We—
Tim · 11:41
Ooh, knife in the gut. We thought about coming for a moment.
George · 11:45
We read something about that.
Tim · 11:47
Swipe left.
George · 11:50
We were selling 10 shows at the same time.
Reggie · 11:53
Oh, wow.
George · 11:55
Talk about constantly refreshing the app. There was one stubborn show that would not sell a single ticket. You know how it is.
Reggie · 12:03
Nashville specifically, yeah.
George · 12:05
Everything's gamified online. You're just like, I just got to get the— One morning I woke up so annoyed that I just bought a ticket just so I could see the number change.
Reggie · 12:13
Get his card in.
Mary · 12:15
Well, you're also asking for it.
Reggie · 12:16
You broke the seal.
Mary · 12:17
Are people trying to buy them?
Reggie · 12:20
Maybe they're like, oh shit, somebody bought a ticket. I better go to that thing too.
George · 12:24
Wait a minute, this is the show I'm in?
Reggie · 12:26
Damn it.
Tim · 12:28
Wow.
George · 12:29
Yeah, but it's real.
Reggie · 12:31
Have you noticed too in Asheville, fairly noncommittal. Everybody will wait until the day before and buy all the tickets. So it's so hard to plan for a show.
Mary · 12:41
Is that just an Asheville thing?
Reggie · 12:43
Oh, I mean, I've put on more, produced more larger format shows here and have been sweating bullets until the week before. And then I'm like—
Tim · 12:53
A couple nights before even.
Reggie · 12:54
I always forget. And then sure enough, 150 tickets will sell 2 or 3 days before and you're like, what?
George · 13:00
I'm convinced producers in Asheville have higher blood pressure than anywhere else.
Reggie · 13:03
Oh, I'm—
George · 13:04
And I think, I call it the Asheville 48, 'cause it's 48 hours before the show is when they really start buying. And you always forget, like you said.
Reggie · 13:12
Yeah.
George · 13:12
And you're just like, what is wrong with me?
Reggie · 13:13
I think it makes sense though, 'cause there's so much stuff to do here. There's always something going on.
Tim · 13:18
You can't pre-plan.
Reggie · 13:19
Yeah, you can't pre-plan.
Tim · 13:19
And then you might not be able to do the thing you really wanted to do.
Reggie · 13:21
Yeah. I thought that ticket was me, oh dang it. They're like, there's 4 things I wanna do that night. I'm gonna see how I feel a couple days out.
George · 13:27
Yeah. And there's always a pop-up.
Reggie · 13:29
Something that— Yeah, right. Somebody just popped up. So I'm glad I didn't buy tickets to that AWAD show 'cause I wouldn't have been able to go. No, it's true.
George · 13:36
For a city our size, there's an outsized amount of stuff to do.
Reggie · 13:39
Yeah.
George · 13:40
Like a lot.
Tim · 13:41
When I was doing music, I was, I had this same anxiety around ticket sales.
George · 13:45
Yeah.
Tim · 13:45
And so I wanted to make a splash. And so at Grey Eagle, our band did a guestless show where, and we fronted the money for the venue and we invited over 300, 400 people to the show. as part of the guest list. And the entire show was all our friends and family for the guest list show.
Reggie · 14:03
Hell yeah.
Tim · 14:04
And packed that place.
Reggie · 14:05
Love it.
Tim · 14:05
And impressed the owner of Grey Eagle so much, he said, come back anytime you want.
Reggie · 14:09
Wow.
Tim · 14:09
That's brilliant. That's so rare that he packed a show.
George · 14:11
Yeah.
Tim · 14:12
Unbelievable. And so that, that was how I overcame my anxiety to do shows.
Reggie · 14:17
You probably had more—
Tim · 14:18
I hated that feeling, not watching the ticket sales. It just is—
Reggie · 14:22
Probably had more people in there than Tycho.
Tim · 14:26
See, it works. No, there is something about a personal invite.
George · 14:29
Totally.
Tim · 14:30
People, they feel—
Reggie · 14:32
They feel obligated to show up.
Tim · 14:34
Obligated in some way.
Reggie · 14:35
Being personally invited on the guest list, I gotta go.
Mary · 14:38
Just for a minute, because I think when you're a performer, and we can all relate on this, the whole point is that you're not just doing one a year. It's a lifestyle of performing, and I do feel like your friends and family lists kind of gets tapped out. Like, people get tired. And yeah, so then how do you build that audience that either is really rabid for the thing that you're doing and comes out to every show, or like a deep enough bench that you rotate through? Yeah, that's a really tough thing to cultivate.
George · 15:06
It's a slow slog.
Tim · 15:07
We should solve that right now for George.
Mary · 15:09
Yeah, well, I think we're capable.
Tim · 15:12
What did you think of Reggie? What's culture?
Reggie · 15:14
Well, I was just gonna say, yeah, I wanna— I wanted to touch on what my initial response was. For me, I think it— we started this agency because we were tired of the hustle culture.
Tim · 15:26
Yeah.
Reggie · 15:27
Being mostly solopreneurs or very, very small agency owners, there's— you're always hustling. There's constant hustle, and the industry kind of promotes that. So like, if you're not like going 150 miles an hour, like you're you're not going to make it in this industry.
Mary · 15:45
Well, the clients reward the hustle.
Reggie · 15:49
Yeah, the clients reward the hustle.
Mary · 15:51
Oh, well, they're willing to do it overnight.
Reggie · 15:53
So what are you going to do? Yeah, exactly. So there's that.
Tim · 15:56
They call it dedication.
Reggie · 15:56
And I think for me being a solopreneur, obviously it was a benefit to get it in and get it out quick because then you got paid faster.
George · 16:06
Sure.
Mary · 16:06
That's the Reggie way.
Reggie · 16:09
Roll it right back. But what I find that we have this agency as we're navigating the new normal of the creative industry, we're kind of still in the hustle culture.
Tim · 16:21
I was just going to ask you, how do we solve this?
Reggie · 16:22
I know. So what I'd love to walk away from this talk with is like, how do we solve the hustle culture?
Mary · 16:30
The word hustle culture, the term has been coming up a lot this week.
Tim · 16:35
Definitely has.
Mary · 16:35
Sorry, go ahead.
Tim · 16:36
No, I was gonna say, before you get into depth, I just wanted to hear initially what came to your mind when you heard it.
Mary · 16:40
The hustle culture. I think this is an interesting theme for someone in their 30s versus their 40s versus their 50s.
Tim · 16:47
Yeah.
Mary · 16:47
And the ageless and eternal George. But I think that I grew up in hustle culture. It's always been expected. I'm a Capricorn, so I can't have a hobby without thinking, how can this make me money? And to me, the term hustle culture is like tied in my head to this sort of cheugy, like a less evolved idea archetype of a girl boss. Do you ever hear people talking about that?
Tim · 17:13
Yeah, there was a whole brand called Girl Boss. You remember that brand? Massive.
Mary · 17:16
I don't remember the brand that was selling products, but it was latched onto a bigger movement, I'm sure. And I just, I don't know. I think there was a lot of like women's liberation that got sort of tied up in it, but it's like, oh no, it's all still capitalism. Sorry, getting out of the kitchen didn't really solve it. Being in charge of other people didn't really solve it. It's all about like your labor being extracted by whatever means the machine can get it out of you. So sorry, I can always make it a little bit of a bummer. But yeah, we keep— I think that's what's coming up for me in this room is like we keep trying really hard and then we look around, we're like, why are we doing this?
Reggie · 17:56
Yeah.
Mary · 17:56
And like, who are we performing for kind of thing? And we have to like calm each other down.
Tim · 18:01
Yeah.
George · 18:01
Yeah.
Mary · 18:01
What comes to mind for you?
Tim · 18:02
Mine was no. I know I said yes, but that's because I want to talk about this because no is the way I feel. It's like I have been trying to escape hustle culture since I was in my— when was the first? See, I was asking that question because I think the first push of hustle culture came in the early 2000s when it was like the— or maybe like 2010 era.
Reggie · 18:25
Right.
Tim · 18:25
When it was this—
Mary · 18:26
When I was in high school?
George · 18:27
Yeah.
Tim · 18:28
I mean, you might've missed this one unless you— you're probably doing your homework.
Reggie · 18:31
So that's kind of hustle culture.
Tim · 18:32
Maybe that's training.
Reggie · 18:32
I'm just saying.
Mary · 18:34
adult without hustle culture.
George · 18:35
Yeah.
Mary · 18:36
Right.
Tim · 18:36
But I feel like it waned. I feel like everyone was like, you got to do a side gig. You got to do all this stuff. And then everyone's like, we're exhausted. And so we all kind of took a chill and we're like, hustle culture is bad for us. Let's meditate.
Mary · 18:47
When do you think that chill happened?
George · 18:48
You think it was like the recession of 2008?
Tim · 18:51
Oh, maybe.
George · 18:52
That was when the chill happened maybe?
Tim · 18:54
It could have been. No, you know what? I feel like it was after that because I was still doing music. I think it was like 2010 and '11. No, not yet. I feel like with me, it was a wellness movement started, like meditation and mindfulness and overworking.
Reggie · 19:09
Yeah.
Tim · 19:09
There was this regeneration of like, you're not just what you do, that mentality.
Mary · 19:15
There was almost kind of shame for a minute about the hustle.
Tim · 19:19
You work through the night and you're just—
Reggie · 19:21
The overly busy all the time was like, why are you doing this?
Mary · 19:26
I'm still trying to be there. Why are you working so hard?
Tim · 19:29
I just feel like you can't avoid the hustle culture now.
George · 19:30
That's what I'm wondering. Financial isolation.
Tim · 19:34
Yeah, like to be independently wealthy.
George · 19:36
They don't hustle. Yeah, exactly. Or when you see some of these like social influencers, yeah, they talk about like, I work 3.5 hours a day and I get all done.
Tim · 19:45
Oh my God.
George · 19:45
But they're also spending probably double that time making those videos. Yeah. And editing them and all that in the first place. Yep. Right.
Reggie · 19:52
Culling through all the footage to find the magic moments.
George · 19:55
Hustle with that too.
Reggie · 19:56
That stuff takes a lot of time.
Tim · 19:57
So that's what I'm wondering. And I, in our— we'll have discussions internally about the success of our agency. And I always, and I'm sure my partners are frustrated with this aspect of what I come to the table with, is that I don't understand how you create a balanced life and succeed.
George · 20:16
Right.
Tim · 20:17
I don't know if our culture actually makes a path for that. It's something we're gonna have to create here, because I feel like to succeed, from what I've seen and the research I've done, you have to sacrifice everything to get there. Who's the guy on Shark Tank? What's his name?
George · 20:31
Which one?
Reggie · 20:31
Mark Cuban or Kevin O'Leary?
Tim · 20:34
Kevin O'Leary. He just came out with this short, and my wife said I should do a— it's a video where you— reaction video. She said I should watch it and vlog.
Reggie · 20:44
Oh, yeah.
Tim · 20:45
Because I had such a strong visceral reaction to what he was saying. He says, if you want to succeed, find someone who's willing to take care of your kids for you. For the first 10 years of their life.
Reggie · 20:57
Right.
Tim · 20:57
Who's willing for you not to be there for the first 10 years of your life.
Reggie · 21:01
Right.
Tim · 21:02
That's coming from the top. That's like some kind of narrative that I knew always existed, but it's just being spoken out loud, and people are like, yeah, this is what Hormozi says. This is what— all of them are saying it. Like, do it all for the job, and he says, I'm happy doing the job. So, all right.
Mary · 21:17
Well, the assumption was for so many years that that was a woman's job. Like, oh, if you have a wife, that's baked into the deal.
Tim · 21:23
That's what's weird about what he said is that it's almost like he's suggesting we go back to that point. Like Mad Men. You know the Mad Men era?
George · 21:29
Yeah.
Reggie · 21:30
Yeah.
George · 21:30
Yeah.
Reggie · 21:30
Yikes.
Tim · 21:31
Where you just get into it. I mean, it gave me such a feeling of like, I'm pissed that there is no—
Reggie · 21:40
Otherwise?
Tim · 21:41
This is what we've turned our world into, our lives into. This is the world we've built.
Mary · 21:45
And they're like challenging your relationship with your kid in some way.
George · 21:49
Yeah. All right.
Mary · 21:49
That's one of the bizarre things I was saying to the guys like earlier this week or last week. I was like, what a strange thing that here we are founding an agency, trying to get started up. And I am a woman in her 30s, childless, being supported by my husband who's at home doing laundry as we speak, working with 2 adults. Alex is holding this whole show together.
Reggie · 22:14
Yeah. We love you, Alex.
Tim · 22:17
Um, oh yeah. He's separating colors. He's got it.
Mary · 22:20
He'll pull my delicates out. We line draw.
Tim · 22:22
That era's over.
George · 22:23
Yeah, yeah.
Tim · 22:23
They know how to separate now.
Reggie · 22:25
Yeah.
George · 22:25
I purposely never bought anything white because I hate the idea of separating.
Mary · 22:28
But, but, and here I am, like, one of the challenges we face and— sorry, Will. And it's, it's a wonderful, beautiful thing. I would not change it for the world. I love these people. But sometimes, like, the kids—
Tim · 22:42
Who are these people?
Mary · 22:42
Your children.
Tim · 22:43
Oh, okay.
Mary · 22:45
Sometimes they have to come first, right? And how ironic that I'm the one often who's like available to be here with these very present fathers who often, not often, but sometimes get called away to tend to matters of the family. And that's so backwards from what we're supposed to do.
Reggie · 23:02
No, it's actually, I think it's great, right? It's like how it should be.
Tim · 23:05
It is the opposite of the— of what—
Reggie · 23:07
It's the opposite of that age-old culture of like the woman stays home, the husband goes off and makes all the money. My wife is totally carrying us right now, which I think is amazing.
Mary · 23:18
I think that it means that whatever we build, women and mothers will also find a place in it because we cannot judge somebody for wanting to take care of their family, right?
George · 23:28
Right.
Mary · 23:29
More importantly than taking care of some client, right? Fluff their ego or whatever, right?
Reggie · 23:33
Right.
Mary · 23:33
But it's, it's a bizarre thing, right?
Tim · 23:35
So I think we already covered the drives us crazy. We're all feeling that. Um, you know, go ahead.
Reggie · 23:42
I was gonna say the most, the most hustle culturist Existence I've ever had was when I worked at the— I was the creative director for Warren Wilson College while also running Curve Theory on the side because the college didn't pay enough. And I was working— that was crazy. I was probably working 70 to 80 hours. It was like having 2 full-time jobs.
Mary · 24:08
The side hustle.
Tim · 24:09
Yeah, that's how it started.
Mary · 24:13
2 hustles.
Reggie · 24:13
It was crazy. I would come home at like 6 o'clock, like spend like an hour eating with the family, and then go down into the dungeon to my office and work until like 1 or 2 in the morning. And then I'd get like 5 or so hours of sleep and I'd get up, rinse, repeat, do it all over again. That was crazy. And I thought I was gonna die because I was like, I can't keep this up.
George · 24:35
Right.
Tim · 24:36
And this is the same promise that I feel like AI is putting or the idea of AI is putting toward us or for us to decide is we were doing the side hustle to make a better future for ourselves, to build something. It was originally like, I'll do my job, which pays for everything, and then I'll do a side hustle.
Reggie · 24:53
It's like you're paying into the future.
Tim · 24:55
And to succeed a little more, to do something I love. And then all of a sudden it's like, okay, we'll pay you less on your job. Now you have a side hustle. And so we thought we were going to be working more to work less.
Reggie · 25:05
Yeah.
Tim · 25:05
Someone told me when I was in my first agency, they said, you can never work more to work less.
Reggie · 25:11
Right. You can't pay into the future because essentially you're just gonna stay in the— Because once you— The future gets pushed further out.
Mary · 25:17
Right. The grasshopper and the ant kind of thing.
George · 25:19
Yeah.
Tim · 25:20
Right.
Mary · 25:20
I don't know. I think it's the wrong kind of work.
Reggie · 25:23
Yeah.
Mary · 25:23
Like, I think there are— I don't know if anybody's heard, I'm a Capricorn. The whole trope is like long-term meetings over—
Tim · 25:33
Capricorn.
George · 25:33
Capricorn. Yeah.
Reggie · 25:34
I'm having some Capricorn.
Mary · 25:35
It's not—
Tim · 25:35
see, so—
Mary · 25:37
I'm not a snack, Reggie.
George · 25:38
Come on.
Tim · 25:39
Mary's a snack.
Mary · 25:41
A snack.
Tim · 25:41
It's not that— it's not that—
Reggie · 25:43
A bag of Capricorn.
George · 25:45
This podcast is brought to you by Capricorn.
Tim · 25:48
The delicious Mary snack.
Reggie · 25:51
It's so yummy.
Mary · 25:51
It was. So I do— but that's a good question. Well, one thing that strikes me when Reggie was speaking is like there's— oh, yeah. Sometimes it— we'll talk about that later.
George · 26:02
I just noticed.
Tim · 26:03
Sorry, I didn't mean to distract you.
Reggie · 26:04
I know.
Mary · 26:04
It's like my face is naked.
Tim · 26:08
Face clothes off.
Mary · 26:09
We've got to get back to the top.
Tim · 26:11
Okay, go ahead. Finish what you were saying.
Mary · 26:12
Sorry. Reggie was talking about side hustles and I was like, yeah, and side hustles kind of beg to be solitary. I can get this done by myself.
George · 26:19
Right.
Mary · 26:20
Yeah. Jobs, it's so unlikely that your side hustle is, I'm going to get together with my friends and do something fun.
Tim · 26:24
Right.
Reggie · 26:25
And crush it. Right.
Mary · 26:26
The show might be, but the producing of the show can be a very solitary thing.
Tim · 26:30
Right.
Mary · 26:30
But I don't know. Is there a world— I do think that there's a version of event where like the behaviors that you invest in now become your future, like exercise.
Reggie · 26:42
Right?
Mary · 26:43
Like you can put in deposits on exercise and reap dividends on it.
Reggie · 26:46
That has to be a side hustle too.
Tim · 26:48
That is a—
George · 26:48
feels like a side hustle. Yeah.
Reggie · 26:49
Feels like a side hustle.
Mary · 26:50
But like, why? But why is the side hustle different? Why is hustle culture changing that? Right.
Tim · 26:58
You bring up a good point because I was gonna say that hustle culture being good or bad, I don't think it's morally good or bad, but whether it's healthy for humans may depend on whether or not what you're hustling for is what you want.
George · 27:10
Yeah.
Tim · 27:12
Maybe not, because it feels like you're doing what you want, but you're feeling drained by the hustle of it.
George · 27:16
Yeah, it's just a lot. It's just a lot. But I also don't really buy the idea of a work-life balance.
Mary · 27:24
Say more. It hurts me to hear you say it.
George · 27:27
I don't like saying it, but I just like—
Tim · 27:29
Hurt Mary a little more.
George · 27:30
Just explain.
Reggie · 27:31
Are you saying it doesn't exist?
George · 27:32
It doesn't exist on a daily basis. I would say it's like a ship rocking occasionally here, occasionally there. I think it's a teeter-totter, really.
Reggie · 27:42
Is it something worth striving for? And how often do you strive? Do you strive every day to try to have that? Or is it like, you know, I'm gonna— a few days here, I'm gonna completely surrender myself to the hustle, and then I'm gonna take 3 days off?
George · 27:58
I think it kinda has to be something like that. And it probably changes. Yeah, not a strict 3-3.
Reggie · 28:04
Yeah.
George · 28:04
You know, and I think, you know, it changes. Like, I don't know, something— I mean, maybe there's a day even here where it's just like, you know what, it's quiet. Not getting any client emails. I'm just gonna go for a walk. Or I'm just gonna go—
Tim · 28:18
so you take that break.
Reggie · 28:19
Yeah, we're gonna start doing that.
George · 28:20
I'm gonna go to a bookstore and just—
Reggie · 28:22
let's go to Malaprops.
Mary · 28:23
Oh my god, I could live.
Reggie · 28:25
Let's just walk over to Malaprops and just hang out.
George · 28:27
But it's easy for me to forget Right. Because you know how people say like, oh, I can eat. I feel like when you work for yourself, you're like, oh, I got a couple hours, I could work, I can knock something out.
Mary · 28:37
Yeah.
George · 28:38
Which is like, I just— it's reflexive now. And it's like, no, don't. Yeah, don't watch Mad Men again. I usually watch Mad Men, or just sit on the couch and stare at the ceiling.
Reggie · 28:48
I used to be way more— because I understand, inherently understand the value of having self- care time, like self-time. Because what I noticed, because I've always been like the hard, hard, like, I would just grind, grind, grind, get like 3 hours, even through college, I averaged like 3 hours of sleep at night in college because I worked full-time and went to school full-time. And it's like, well, how am I going to get everything done unless I like just sleep for 3 hours?
Mary · 29:16
And yet your skin looks so good.
Tim · 29:18
It's so young.
Mary · 29:19
You must have been hydrating like crazy.
Reggie · 29:23
That's where all the gray hairs came from.
George · 29:25
His smooth water bottle.
Reggie · 29:27
It all came out and oozed out of my beard. But ultimately, I think I realized at one point that when you're working so hard and fast against the grain to get something done, you are only about half as productive. So what I started finding out is I'd pull these all-nighters and I'd be half asleep all night. I'm drinking yerba mate trying to stay awake and stay vibrant and And then I get maybe about, you know, 25 to 30% done of what I would have gotten done if I'd just fallen asleep, had a good night's sleep, and woken up early to do the work.
George · 30:05
Exactly.
Reggie · 30:06
So I started doing that. But then as a solopreneur, I found myself more often, if I didn't have a meeting or a deadline and I was in a good place on my projects, I would just take the day off or just randomly like veg all day. This was like pre-marriage and pre, you know, but even after—
Tim · 30:24
Pre-4 kids.
Reggie · 30:25
Yeah, pre-kids, pre-3 more kids.
Mary · 30:27
This was like in the days before Mary.
Reggie · 30:29
No, no, this was pre-Mary. You know, Mary came in and that just went right out the window. She's got me here every day just slaving away. But no, I think I found myself being more efficient and productive because I was taking these breaks and allowing myself that reset. And I do value it. We just have to make sure we fight for it because—
Tim · 30:55
I agree.
George · 30:55
Yeah, it's breaking the stress cycle.
Reggie · 30:57
Yeah, it's like— and I have been— I mean, I'm happy to talk health stuff. I have been dealing with high blood pressure lately, and I think a lot of it comes from just that lack of— I've kind of gotten away from the occasional, like, I'm just going to play hooky today. Because we're trying to build something, we're trying to And I just have to remind myself, you know what? You're gonna be equally as efficient if you take 2 to 3 hours and just do something for yourself. And when you come back, you're inspired, your synapses are firing, and you're gonna get way more done.
George · 31:30
So true.
Tim · 31:31
I used to sit at the computer. I'm a workaholic recovering, and I thought I could get done with something.
George · 31:38
Yeah.
Tim · 31:39
And I realized that I can't get done with it. There's always something more.
Reggie · 31:41
Yeah.
Tim · 31:42
The list keeps growing. So no matter how much I worked, I realized this, It just kept coming.
Reggie · 31:47
The goalpost keeps getting pushed farther away.
Tim · 31:48
There was no good time to stop working at night, and I would come home at 6:30 and 7 and 8, and I'd miss my kids. And then I read this article from this video editor that wasn't popular until he got cancer. He started writing these really raw posts about his experience in getting cancer and dying all the way up until very close to his death.
Reggie · 32:12
Wow.
Tim · 32:12
And he was hitting this right in the middle of the eyes, like just punching at this topic where he was saying that we do this because the overlords say that we should do it. They take advantage of creatives because creatives want to do, they want to create, they want to please and reach those expectations.
Mary · 32:32
And bring things into the world that did not exist.
Tim · 32:34
They're naturally inclined to do this work. And so the higher-ups will say, yeah, we need that by Friday at the latest. And so he does all this work to get it there, and he's doing all-nighters, and he's not seeing his family. And Friday gets there, and they're like, I delivered it. Oh, that's good. The client changed their mind. We're going to need to redo it and have it by Monday.
Reggie · 32:53
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Tim · 32:54
So he sacrificed himself. Once he got cancer, he started realizing what was happening. And he says, it's not worth it. It doesn't matter if that— he was talking about a certain ad that he was Sure. Editing. He says, it doesn't matter if he turns right or left. Go home and kiss your kids.
Reggie · 33:08
Yeah.
George · 33:09
Right?
Tim · 33:09
Go home and kiss your wife. And then I started realizing that the work doesn't end. It's my decision to end the work.
Reggie · 33:17
Dude, you are hitting the point on the head, and I literally just had this experience last night. And it's funny you mentioned that this guy was a video producer, because last night I was editing those videos from the shoot on Saturday, and there is this internal voice saying, Keep going, keep going. You have to finish this. Keep going. You've got to find all the cull-through and find all these clips. And then I'm listening to my kids running upstairs, and I know Paris is up in the kitchen, probably preparing dinner or working or doing something on her laptop, but they're all together and I'm down here and I'm like, wait, this isn't a rush job. Why am I doing this?
George · 33:55
Right.
Reggie · 33:56
I just find myself just creeping back into it. So I have to It's kind of an addiction. It's like a trained or learned addiction. You have to yank yourself out of it. So I shut it down and I went upstairs, spent the rest of the night. We played Catchphrase. We laughed. We had fun. I got to tuck my girls in. I got to hang out with my wife and my son and chat.
George · 34:20
As creatives, we often forget how important all that is into the process. You've all struggled with a logo.
Tim · 34:29
Oh yeah.
George · 34:30
It's like the hardest thing to do.
Tim · 34:31
Misery.
George · 34:32
Literal misery.
Reggie · 34:33
For designers, it's hard. Not the hardest thing to do, but it's—
Tim · 34:34
You do it easily. We don't. The rest of us in the world don't do it easily, thank you.
Reggie · 34:38
It's about the process. I have a process, but I have in the past struggled with it.
George · 34:41
You struggle with it. And sometimes nothing is better than getting the hell away from it for a few days if you can.
Mary · 34:46
Yes.
George · 34:47
And then coming back and it's just like, oh yeah, of course. That's what I need to do.
Reggie · 34:52
Because you're going against the grain. You're pushing, pushing, pushing, and your brain is like, Dude, I got nothing. And then you get up, you go exercise your brain on something else, you focus on something else.
Mary · 35:01
It's so true.
Reggie · 35:02
And you come back, you're like, shit, that's right there. This is the solution.
Tim · 35:06
Bam. One of the blog posts he wrote, you just reminded me, was about sleeping on it.
Reggie · 35:09
Yes.
Tim · 35:10
We've forgotten the importance of sleeping on it.
Reggie · 35:13
It's huge.
George · 35:13
Yes. It's huge.
Tim · 35:13
Give it time.
Mary · 35:14
There is that sense of like, we talk about the acceleration of technology and how it hasn't really cut down on the amount of work that we do in a day. In theory, the fact that a letter doesn't take a week to get to my client, but instead I can send an email instantly, you'd think that would give me all this extra time to do other things, but we just fill it and fill it and fill it, and AI's becoming the same problem. But it does make one wonder, what is the natural pace of human work? And a human needs to sleep on a certain cycle.
George · 35:45
Sure.
Reggie · 35:45
So what is the right I like that concept, like the human pace. What is the human pace? What should it be?
Tim · 35:54
In sociological circles, they're asking this question because it's an ethical or moral question for someone else to decide what is good for a human. With a plant, you can say whether or not it's good to be in the sun or be in the basement. You say, is it going to be healthier for a plant to be watered and to sit by a window or to stick it in a basement and never see the sun?
Reggie · 36:19
You need one of those little cards you stick in the soil that tells you how to take care of it.
Tim · 36:23
No, but the thing is—
Reggie · 36:24
Reggie needs this many hours of like The Boys and—
Tim · 36:27
Daylight, right. But there's no ethical way to tell someone else, you can't— it's not good for you to sit in your basement and stay on your computer for endless hours of the day. Even though it seems obvious that's not good for you, but it doesn't work the same way. And they're actually having— there's a big conversation around what is good for a human. And the wellness culture, to me, optimized on this in a way that I don't think is healthy.
Mary · 36:52
Well, they capitalized at a certain point.
Tim · 36:55
They had to be able to sell it. Because then you're a failure for doing anything.
George · 36:57
Yeah.
Reggie · 36:58
How cool would it be if you got a new job and you go into the office and they go, all right, looks like he can only work on Tuesdays and Thursdays. He needs half days off on Fridays. I love it.
Mary · 37:13
I love it. But this concept of like, uh, oh, he's hungry.
George · 37:18
He's hungry.
Mary · 37:19
Not an operator's manual. I'm trying to make it into like a human can't be used, but like, I know that sounds kind of dark, right? But like, here are the communication styles that I like thrive in, right? And like, here's ways to work better with Mary. Here's ways to get what you want from Mary in a better way.
Reggie · 37:36
That would be a really ingenious way to have your resume. Like, to get the best out of me, I require yada, yada, yada. I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be super inspired when you yada, yada, yada.
Mary · 37:49
God forbid you ask your employer for anything.
Reggie · 37:52
Right.
Mary · 37:54
You're supposed to show up like, what do you need?
Reggie · 37:56
Yeah, what do you need from me?
Mary · 37:57
Right.
Tim · 37:58
We just had this discussion yesterday, being indispensable.
George · 38:01
We talked about it.
Reggie · 38:01
Yes, we talked about indispensable.
Tim · 38:03
Yesterday was— maybe we did prepare No, but it's on the board. We were talking about our positioning because we're having to reposition, as many of you are, because everything AI is throwing the world into a panic.
George · 38:14
Yeah.
Tim · 38:15
And things are— services are changing. And so we're discussing what our position is. And we came on this word of indispensable. And this is something that you are trained to understand and to desire to become indispensable. They teach you as you're coming into your work life, life, how to be indispensable so you don't get fired and laid off and all this stuff. But what they don't teach you is that when you're a founder and you become indispensable as the founder of your company, you start to lose all your life, your abilities to move.
Reggie · 38:48
Because it can't run without you.
Tim · 38:49
Right.
Mary · 38:50
How does that feel? Like a producer feels like the most indispensable.
Reggie · 38:55
Yeah, you're probably feeling indispensable. Like if you step out, things are going to stop.
George · 39:00
Yeah, I mean, I have a co-producer, my producing partner Paul, but yeah, we come with different skill sets. So yeah, it's a lot. Most small businesses, as you know, start off as vanity businesses.
Reggie · 39:12
Yeah.
George · 39:13
Because you're the person.
Reggie · 39:14
You're the person.
George · 39:15
And it's hard to take the next step from that.
Mary · 39:18
But you're making me think, George, that it's also— I like to throw the plight of the creative at you because I see myself like—
George · 39:27
Give me the plight.
Mary · 39:27
Here it comes. But I think there is There is an element of, oh, I'm a creative, I'm putting my passion into this. This is an expression of who I am on some level. Of course I'm indispensable to it. How could someone else express my experience?
George · 39:45
Well, sure.
Mary · 39:45
It's my special shtick. That's the whole point.
Tim · 39:48
It makes you unique.
Reggie · 39:49
Sure.
Mary · 39:49
I guess. Or like, if I'm not involved, it's not mine kind of thing.
Tim · 39:53
I know.
Reggie · 39:54
I was in that trap for 25 years. where it's like I was indispensable. If I got up, walked away from my computer, nothing was happening. Everything would come to a screaming halt. So I had this like— and it definitely produces so much stress. I had this internal engine that was like, if I'm doing anything other than like getting the thing done, Mm-hmm. Doing the editing, the photos, designing the logos, doing the campaign, whatever, If I'm not there doing it, nobody else is. So if I'm out having fun with the family or watching a movie, there was this little thing I couldn't let go of that knew that nothing was progressing. And that was something that— that was a real challenge to ignore that voice.
Tim · 40:42
What advice would you give to someone who wants to succeed that isn't hustle?
Reggie · 40:49
And in that you're not indispensable. Like, how do you make yourself—
Tim · 40:54
Right, because they—
Reggie · 40:55
Somewhat dispensable.
Tim · 40:56
How do you make yourself dispensable?
Reggie · 40:57
How do you make yourself dispensable?
Tim · 40:58
Sit down and listen to us as we just—
Reggie · 41:01
So that you—
Tim · 41:01
You gotta become dispensable.
Mary · 41:02
Invaluable.
Reggie · 41:03
Yeah. Yes.
George · 41:05
Everyone's dispensable. I mean, I think that has to be accepted right off the bat. Everyone's dispensable. Let's get into it.
Tim · 41:10
Right? Right, for a certain—
George · 41:12
For sure.
Tim · 41:12
For a certain other person, maybe an entity.
Reggie · 41:15
Yeah.
Tim · 41:15
But for your own business, you are dispensable, but then you don't have a business.
George · 41:19
Right, right, right, right. Yeah, I guess what I'm saying is like, in the world at large, in the world at large, and I think I try to, if it can, if you can afford it. Yeah, that's another thing too. When you have a small business, sometimes you have to do all the things because you can't— I'm the cheapest designer I know.
Reggie · 41:37
I see.
George · 41:38
When I'm working for it, when I'm working for myself, you know what I mean?
Mary · 41:43
Absolutely.
George · 41:44
But like, but yeah, if you can afford it, like, if there's always gonna be someone who could do something better than you, get out of their way. Let them do it.
Reggie · 41:53
Let them do it.
George · 41:54
I love collaborating, actually.
Reggie · 41:56
I love—
George · 41:57
like, I co-wrote a play with my friend Jamie Knox a few years ago, and I'd never done that before.
Mary · 42:02
What's the title of the play?
George · 42:03
It's great. It's called The Shorthand Job. I'll tell you why we named it, because it's all about—
Tim · 42:10
Do you have a link to this so we can watch I might actually.
George · 42:13
I'll look for it. It's basically about this couple who are middle-aged and they kind of stopped listening to each other and they just weren't clicking.
Reggie · 42:21
That's what happens.
George · 42:22
And so he's a lawyer and he decided— it's an absurdist premise— that he decided they're gonna bring in— he's gonna bring in a stenographer into their lives.
Reggie · 42:30
Oh, how hilarious.
Mary · 42:32
So it's a story about polyamory?
George · 42:34
Shorthand. But his wife thinks that's what he means. Opening up the marriage. He's like, well, no, I'm just gonna bring in a stenographer. And then they kind of go through the whole thing and there's like a—
Reggie · 42:47
To help with communication?
George · 42:48
Yeah, there was one piece of trauma between them that that all emanated from.
Reggie · 42:53
It was cool. I love it. But it was— We're gonna screen it on our giant TV at the house.
Tim · 42:56
How did you deal with the trauma in the play? How did you write that?
George · 43:00
Well, I don't know if I wanna give away too much.
Reggie · 43:03
No, I was gonna say, no spoilers.
Tim · 43:04
Don't spoil it. You did, you did give it away.
Mary · 43:08
No spoilers.
George · 43:08
We dealt with it, we dealt with it. It was great, but it was a cast of 4, and then the crew, director, dramaturg, everything. It was one of the coolest experiences because we came into rehearsal, we had 5 weeks to put it up. We came in with— Wow.
Tim · 43:26
See, you hustled.
George · 43:27
Wow. We did hustle because we came in without an ending, without an act.
Mary · 43:30
Oh, you hadn't been rehearsing?
Reggie · 43:31
Wow.
George · 43:32
We wrote it and rehearsed it on the spot.
Reggie · 43:34
Oh my gosh, that's amazing.
George · 43:36
But everybody, nobody was a diva.
Reggie · 43:39
Okay.
Mary · 43:39
And we're back.
George · 43:40
And we're back.
Tim · 43:41
I would like Mary to finish her story, and then I want to hear that again because I think people need to hear what you're saying.
George · 43:46
Okay. Yeah, but with more feeling.
Mary · 43:47
Yeah.
Tim · 43:48
This time—
Mary · 43:50
I'm gonna give it to you again. Make a new choice. What I was trying to say before we cut was simply that theater, unlike anything else I've experienced in my life, teaches us that we are greater than the sum of our parts.
George · 44:03
Yes.
Mary · 44:03
Yeah. And that there's a special magic just Just for having the people in the room who happen to be there, that convergence of creative energy and the feeling of collaboration that will be different with a different mix of individuals.
George · 44:14
Oh, it's the best.
Tim · 44:15
It is.
Mary · 44:15
So you can do—
Reggie · 44:16
Magic.
Mary · 44:16
You could do the same play 50 times with a slightly different group of people or a slightly different venue, and it's going to feel completely fresh.
George · 44:22
And that's why improv's so great.
Reggie · 44:24
Improv is so great because of that.
Mary · 44:27
I was looking forward to Reggie teaching me how to keep my marriage.
Reggie · 44:30
I'm going to steal that.
Tim · 44:33
This segment brought to you by Reggie Tidwell.
Mary · 44:36
He would do counseling if you asked him, I think.
Tim · 44:39
You did actually a couple from— you do counseling. People tell you their problems.
Reggie · 44:44
Oh yeah, they do. I don't know why it is. There's something about me. It's just like listener. And people— I mean, I'm a good listener. I do like—
George · 44:53
You are.
Reggie · 44:53
But I will say, while we were having our audio difficulties, I was reflecting on George's play, that he mentioned about the shorthand job and the husband bringing a stenographer into the marriage to help with communication. And I was saying that I think what often happens in relationships is that each party of the relationship needs a certain amount of needing to be heard, needing to be able to express themselves. And what happens over time is when you don't make time for being able to have those conversations and hear each other and feel heard and also feel love. A lot of times when we argue, there's the absence of love. Oftentimes when my wife and I are having heated conversations, we'll be holding hands. So there's this connection and we're— that feels like connection.
George · 45:54
Mm-hmm.
Reggie · 45:54
And I've been in relationships where you have an argument and it's like all of a sudden you feel like you're that person's enemy and you're like, oh my God. But what happens over time, if you don't give each other that time and space to be heard and have these conversations, this wall starts to go up. And I've always used this metaphor because it's such a great metaphor, because as the wall goes up, you can't see each other.
Tim · 46:18
You're isolated.
Reggie · 46:19
You can't see through the wall. And all of a sudden there's like a stranger over there. Things start to get detached.
George · 46:25
Right.
Reggie · 46:26
And the goal in a relationship should be to keep the wall down by being compassionate, hearing each other, allowing each other the space to feel heard and supported.
Tim · 46:34
My wife and I always said that it's because we fight well together.
George · 46:37
Yeah.
Tim · 46:38
And I told this to a married friend of mine.
Reggie · 46:40
Which is it, because you're hearing each other.
George · 46:42
Yeah.
Tim · 46:42
A friend of mine got married and they were in this, you know, early honeymoon stages.
George · 46:47
Right.
Tim · 46:47
And I said this to her and she She just got so upset with me. It's like how I was wrong and all this stuff.
Reggie · 46:53
Oh, wow.
Tim · 46:54
I was just telling her, this is what I've learned. If you learn to fight well together, you'll stay together. They didn't.
Reggie · 47:01
They didn't stay together. 25 years you guys are.
Tim · 47:04
Right. We've been married 25 years. I think there's something about— there is. Priya Parker just put out this new book called The Art of Fighting. She was the one that released the book.
Mary · 47:13
Oh, I haven't heard about this. The Art of Gathering.
George · 47:14
The Art of Gathering.
Mary · 47:15
Yeah.
Tim · 47:15
She grew up in a house that was divided.
Reggie · 47:18
Yeah.
Tim · 47:18
And so she was trying to play the— that's how she learned about gathering, is to mediate these 2 groups who have opposing—
Mary · 47:23
She's like a world-class negotiator.
George · 47:25
Yeah.
Tim · 47:26
Yeah. So The Art of Fighting, and it hits home because I think that I grew up thinking fighting was bad in a marriage.
Reggie · 47:32
Same.
Tim · 47:32
The first time Megan and I had a fight, I thought we were getting divorced.
George · 47:36
We were young.
Tim · 47:37
So granted, it may have been true, but I literally thought she threw her keys on the floor and I was like, oh, we're done. Married like 6 months.
George · 47:46
Was that like a clue?
Reggie · 47:47
Just like, get lost? You're like, that's it? Throw the keys?
Tim · 47:48
I mean, she was yelling at me in the car and then threw the keys. I thought she was gonna punch me in the face with them, but then she threw them on the ground. And she may have been wanting to punch me in the face.
Reggie · 47:56
Right.
George · 47:57
Yeah.
Tim · 47:57
And I didn't realize that that is the path to relationship, is to have those really intense confrontations.
Reggie · 48:06
Well, it's about having a compatible communication style.
Tim · 48:07
And to learn how to fight together.
Reggie · 48:09
It's compatible communication style.
Tim · 48:11
Yeah, because you can't say everything perfectly. That's the thing. That's the hard part to handle in marriage and relationship, generally speaking. You can't always say the right thing even though you know what it is.
Reggie · 48:23
I mean, you're always going to have conflict.
Tim · 48:24
Yeah. You're going to say something that pisses the other person off.
Reggie · 48:27
It's the conflict resolution that matters most. I think the couples that struggle the hardest are the ones like you have one that doesn't want to talk about it in the moment. They want to go. Then this The one person who wants to resolve it right now because they don't want to go to sleep angry, but then the next day happens and they never talk about it.
Tim · 48:44
You hear that? I'm sure I peeked into the mic there.
Reggie · 48:47
You killed the eardrums of all our listeners out there. We're sorry in advance.
Tim · 48:51
I'm known for that.
Mary · 48:52
Oh, you're going to sabotage us. My question for George is, knowing that you are a multi-hyphenate creative and that you have these different, I'll call them lines of revenue, although I could also call them projects or creative endeavors.
George · 49:06
Revenue is a strong word, but go ahead.
Mary · 49:11
Lines of business.
Tim · 49:12
Revenue. What is that? What is that word you're using? French?
George · 49:17
Revenue?
Reggie · 49:18
I—
George · 49:18
but I'm curious.
Mary · 49:20
How do we meet this revenue?
Tim · 49:22
Revenue.
Reggie · 49:25
Revenue.
Mary · 49:26
I'm curious if you had— can you imagine a version of life where it didn't feel like hustle culture, but you still got to do all the things that you wanted to do?
George · 49:36
Can you imagine like that dream You know, I have imagined that a few times. But I feel like just the way things are going, I probably have to imagine it in another country.
Tim · 49:51
Oh.
George · 49:52
I mean, realistically.
Mary · 49:53
Say more.
Tim · 49:53
No, don't say more.
George · 49:54
Don't say more.
Tim · 49:54
I already know this and it's gonna make me want to move more.
Mary · 49:56
Shut up. I already—
Reggie · 49:57
I need silence.
Tim · 49:59
You've said the truth too loudly.
Reggie · 50:00
Right.
George · 50:01
Well, in 2022, I I've always been remote. So 2022, I decided, you know what? I'm a travelholic. Love traveling.
Mary · 50:12
You're in the right room.
George · 50:13
Love it. Absolutely love it. But I never lived anywhere up until that point. So I was like, I'm going to go to Berlin for 3 months.
Reggie · 50:21
Oh, nice.
Mary · 50:22
This is literally on our list.
George · 50:24
Oh, hot.
Mary · 50:24
3 months is the number.
George · 50:25
It was glorious. I loved it. Really?
Mary · 50:28
That's some of the worst news I've ever gotten.
Tim · 50:29
I told him to stop. You said say more. He's saying more.
George · 50:33
Well, I had a friend who lived You're in trouble. He and his wife lived just outside Berlin. And so they were kind of like someone I knew. And anyway, I lived in the city. And I stayed at one of these like digital nomad hotel apartment things.
Reggie · 50:45
Heard of this.
George · 50:46
Where it's like the lobby is just a long communal table. And everything's controlled by an app.
Mary · 50:50
It's the modern hostel. It is.
George · 50:52
But you get a flat of your own with a bathroom of your own. And it was great. And air conditioning. And the rest of Berlin didn't have air conditioning.
Mary · 50:58
They're like these wimpy Americans.
George · 51:00
I was like, that's a bridge too far for me. Anyway, so, and it was great. I It was the middle of summer. I went to the lake like all the Germans do.
Reggie · 51:10
Did Berlin take your breath away?
Tim · 51:12
It did.
Reggie · 51:13
Praktikieren.
George · 51:14
Oh, yeah. Is that why everyone was thinking—
Reggie · 51:17
The song, Take My Breath Away from Top Gun. It's Berlin. It's the name of the band.
Tim · 51:22
I didn't know that.
George · 51:23
Yeah.
Tim · 51:23
I love that song.
George · 51:24
But it really did.
Tim · 51:25
Yeah.
Reggie · 51:25
Sorry, that was a dad joke. Just execute me.
George · 51:28
But it was interesting to see Everything. Berlin is cheaper than Asheville, which is dumb. And then on top of that, like, you know, that is crazy.
Mary · 51:37
Do you remember what your rate was on your flat?
George · 51:41
Yeah, it was $1,700 a month.
Tim · 51:44
Geez.
George · 51:44
Wow.
Reggie · 51:45
But this is at like a kind of like an upscale hotel type of thing.
Mary · 51:48
I'm comparing it to my mortgage right now.
Reggie · 51:50
Yeah.
Tim · 51:51
Oh, yeah.
Reggie · 51:52
That is definitely cheaper than my mortgage.
Tim · 51:54
That's exactly why we traveled.
George · 51:55
I'm like, why rent a place here when I can go live around the world for half But I remember when it was like a Sunday morning and across the street was this organic grocery, which was cheap. I remember thinking like, oh, you know what? I think I'm going to make some chicken tonight. So I remember going, I'm going to go get some chicken.
Mary · 52:10
I love that.
George · 52:11
And the store was closed. And it turns out grocery stores aren't open on Sundays. And so the American in me is like, well, what am I going to eat? I'm supposed to be able to get anything I want whenever I want it. And then by week 3 of I was just like, wait a minute, this is amazing. Yeah. Sunday, why do I need to relax?
Reggie · 52:28
Why am I gonna have to go anywhere on Sunday?
George · 52:30
I'll buy it on Monday.
Reggie · 52:31
Yeah, yeah.
George · 52:31
Let me enjoy Sunday.
Reggie · 52:32
Or buy it on Saturday so you can cook it on the Sunday.
Tim · 52:35
You say is that convenience isn't good for us.
George · 52:38
Not necessarily.
Reggie · 52:40
Right.
George · 52:40
Yeah.
Reggie · 52:41
Having everything readily available at your disposal is actually not helping us.
Tim · 52:46
They're doing research on this.
George · 52:48
Now that said, would I like restaurants in Asheville stay open longer?
Reggie · 52:51
Yes. But— Yeah, yeah.
Tim · 52:54
Two sides of the coin.
George · 52:55
Yeah, two sides of the coin. But no, I mean, but yeah, it's— and now granted, this was, God, 4 years ago already. And I know the world's changing rapidly, but like—
Reggie · 53:04
Rapidly.
Tim · 53:05
Would you say you had work-life balance there in Berlin?
George · 53:07
I absolutely did.
Tim · 53:09
So you said you didn't believe in work-life balance earlier.
George · 53:11
Here.
Reggie · 53:11
And you enjoyed it.
Tim · 53:12
Here?
Reggie · 53:13
Oh, nice question, Nate.
George · 53:14
I just don't think here you can. Also, I feel like you We keep throwing the word succeed around. We have to define what the hell that means.
Tim · 53:20
Did she tell you to say that?
Reggie · 53:22
That's exactly it.
George · 53:23
Oh, is that what you say all the time?
Tim · 53:23
She told you to say that.
Mary · 53:24
You're ringing my bell, baby. Let's go.
Tim · 53:27
This is not cool. We're being gangbanged.
George · 53:30
It's hard because there's lifestyle creep. You know what I mean?
Tim · 53:32
Yeah, totally.
Reggie · 53:34
Lifestyle creep.
George · 53:35
It just happens and you don't even realize it.
Tim · 53:36
A friend of mine once explained work-life balance to me in a different way I've ever heard it. Because I've heard the teeter-totter. I've also heard the It's either this or this. But he said, imagine it more like you're on a bike after you take the training wheels off. The bike needs momentum to move and to balance, and you can't tip one way too far.
George · 53:56
True.
Tim · 53:57
You have to kind of move with the road you're on.
George · 54:00
Right.
Tim · 54:00
You have to turn the curve and you lean into the curve.
George · 54:04
Exactly.
Tim · 54:05
Right. So you lean into what life throws at you, but you can't go too far or you'll fall over.
George · 54:10
Right.
Tim · 54:11
You can't slow it down all the way to stopping or you'll fall over.
George · 54:14
You can't go straight either.
Tim · 54:15
You can't go straight either. That's also difficult. It's like there's this— I think we get into this black and white, like, I've got to have all of this, or I've got to have all of this. I want— if we became wealthy, we could have work-life balance. I think the hustle would change. I think the hustle may be, can I get more attention, or can I get more power, or can I get more something? There's this need.
George · 54:34
That's the creep too.
Tim · 54:36
The drive to always We're thinking it's revenue because we don't think we have enough revenue.
George · 54:42
Yeah.
Reggie · 54:43
Yeah.
Tim · 54:44
But I think that I want to say something you said again to repeat it for myself. You said, when there's someone else that can do it better, get out of their way.
George · 54:52
Yeah.
Tim · 54:53
I think this has to do with, for me, my identity, trying to outdo someone at what they do.
George · 55:00
Right.
Tim · 55:00
And it doesn't work. You just run, run, run, always trying to beat them.
Mary · 55:04
I'm so glad we're here today to—
Reggie · 55:05
Yeah.
Tim · 55:06
I'm being changed because I do feel like there is this desire in America to be better than someone else.
George · 55:13
Right.
Tim · 55:13
And I once read this book and this guy said, there are 2 ways to look at this. You can either try and beat someone or you can try to win someone. And I changed my frame because I've always been the person that's, you know, competitive and I'm beating people. I'm beating them out. I'm winning.
George · 55:28
Sure.
Tim · 55:28
But he says, what if you win people? And that is— what if you I'm trying to say something really good here, Reggie. I'm trying to get a quote on our quote card.
Mary · 55:40
I'm trying to make it quotable, guys.
Reggie · 55:42
Every time you say that, it just reminds me of that British actress or news interviewer that was interviewing the actor, and she's like, you have to beat off a lot of guys to get this role. He was like, I don't think that's what you mean.
Tim · 55:59
So we won't use that word, but to win someone, it's like, what is collaboration really? What is cooperative work? What is getting out of someone else's way who is good at it, and instead of feeling like they're taking the light off of you, giving them the light, and then letting them lead so you can also do your thing and get the different light for you to lead?
Reggie · 56:20
It's like, what if we all just collaborate? That's what we all do together.
George · 56:22
Right.
Tim · 56:23
Yeah.
Reggie · 56:23
That's what I feel with you guys. I do feel like I get to be my best self because I'm not having to do everything. Yeah, you guys are taking them. Yeah, we're not trying to beat each other.
Tim · 56:33
Just kidding.
Mary · 56:35
I'll say the other thing—
Reggie · 56:36
But we're carrying the parts that we know we hold best.
Mary · 56:41
Yeah, it's more like a relay.
Tim · 56:42
We talk about touching their business.
Mary · 56:45
I'll say the other thing, you know, we imagine is like, here's a lane and I'm trying to get ahead in the lane like it's a race, and like I'm gonna to get to the end and that's going to serve me somehow. And like, actually what the market truly rewards, if that's what we're playing for, I think there's something bigger and more divine that we're playing for. But I think it's like divergence. I think it's like, get weird. I think it's like, do it a different way.
Tim · 57:12
Be who you are.
Mary · 57:13
Be the way that nobody else has ever done it because they haven't been born to the parents you were born to in the place that you were born with the name that you were handed.
Reggie · 57:21
With the lifestyle you've had, with the schools you've gone onto and the friends you've had.
George · 57:25
Yeah.
Reggie · 57:25
So like all those things have shaped you uniquely.
Mary · 57:27
And do it. Don't feel like you have to take your version and like do their form. Like find your own form. Yeah. And maybe it takes some exploration, but I love that. I'm always here to get weirder. Yes. That's 40 Hard Rock.
Reggie · 57:40
I love that.
Tim · 57:41
The culture is just to get weirder.
Reggie · 57:42
That's a, that's a Mary Greene quote right there. I'm always down to get weirder.
Tim · 57:47
I mean, I think that is going to be one of your little Yeah, I feel that there is— I feel that right now we're feeling that— I'm feeling that hope that hustle culture isn't the death of us.
Reggie · 57:59
Yeah.
Tim · 58:00
That we're learning something through it.
George · 58:02
Yeah.
Tim · 58:02
That even though we struggle with it, even though we have this habit or this addiction to try and get that approval from other people, we're now learning how we can get out of each other's way and in that, get out of our own way.
Reggie · 58:18
Yeah.
Tim · 58:18
Because if someone else is doing really well at something, and you're with them—
Reggie · 58:22
Support them. Carry them. Let them carry you.
Tim · 58:24
What is it when you ride behind someone on a bike? They do this thing where they push you upstream.
Reggie · 58:26
Oh yeah, you get in their draft. You get in their draft and it makes it easier for you to go.
Tim · 58:31
That's literally how you win races.
Reggie · 58:32
Yeah.
George · 58:33
Right?
Reggie · 58:33
Yeah.
Tim · 58:33
But we've been taught to run ahead and everyone do it themselves, and that is not the message.
Reggie · 58:38
We're all going against the wind.
Tim · 58:40
Yes. So turn muscle culture into getting weird.
Mary · 58:43
Yes.
Reggie · 58:44
I like that.
Tim · 58:44
How does that sound?
George · 58:45
I love it.
Reggie · 58:46
I also think it's good. Is that in here? Is this working? I think it's good to remember too that we have, we all have this inclination to be driven by hustle. Like, it is in us. It is in us because of societal pressures that we've grown up in. It is part of our culture.
Tim · 59:04
Welcome back.
Reggie · 59:06
For the third time.
Tim · 59:08
Just in time to close this out. Wait, who was talking?
Reggie · 59:11
I was talking.
Tim · 59:12
Okay, Rich, you got mic blocked.
Reggie · 59:14
I got mic blocked. Yeah, we got to get these DJI mics sorted out.
Mary · 59:20
Yeah, shout them out, Reggie.
Reggie · 59:21
Yes.
Mary · 59:21
Call them out.
George · 59:23
Let them know. With a side eye.
Reggie · 59:25
You're watching, DJI. DJI. What I was going to say— You'll be getting calls. Yeah, you will be, actually, because I am the tech support guy. I will get to the bottom of it.
Tim · 59:36
Get out of his way.
Reggie · 59:37
What I was saying is that we all have a an inclination to hustle. Like, it's, it's a cultural shaping. We've been shaped by it our whole lives. We've watched our parents hustle, we've watched other people's parents hustle, and our friends hustle. So what we have to do— and then I'll let Tim close it out— we have to remind ourselves that it's okay to feel like you need to hustle, but you got to check yourself.
George · 1:00:08
Yeah.
Reggie · 1:00:08
You got to check yourself before you wreck yourself, because what you will do is get sucked back up into it. Just remind yourself, do I really need to finish this today? Do I really need to work until 11 o'clock, or can I go meet some friends for dinner? Or like—
George · 1:00:24
Self-imposed artificial deadlines.
Reggie · 1:00:26
Yeah, that's it. Yeah, that's the internal self-imposed artificial deadline.
George · 1:00:30
That's a hard thing to shake.
Reggie · 1:00:31
And also the, like, it's the, the art of being busy. Like, just being busy all the time, it's not attractive.
George · 1:00:39
No.
Reggie · 1:00:39
And when your friends are like, hey, let's go do this, you're like, no, I gotta do the thing. Ask yourself, do you really gotta do the thing, or could you just go and hang out with your friends and feel better and then be even more kick-ass tomorrow?
Tim · 1:00:51
That's it.
Reggie · 1:00:51
Because you did the thing with your friends.
Tim · 1:00:53
All right, I wanna ask George, our guest, one last question.
George · 1:00:55
Sure.
Tim · 1:00:56
What is the one piece of advice that you've gotten that you've held onto for the longest, that's made the most impact on you?
Reggie · 1:01:02
Ooh, that's a great question.
George · 1:01:04
One piece of advice.
Reggie · 1:01:10
I prepped you for this. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding.
Tim · 1:01:13
No, Mary prepped you for this.
George · 1:01:14
I'm clearly not off book.
Mary · 1:01:16
Or a piece of advice that you've given. Sometimes you are the sage.
Reggie · 1:01:21
Oh yeah, I like that too.
George · 1:01:23
Well, here's a piece of advice that I think is— it helped me as a performer. And it's so basic.
Tim · 1:01:34
I know you know this.
Mary · 1:01:35
And all the world's a stage.
George · 1:01:36
It is. It is. But it's, you know this too, it's just, it's find your light. And I think it's important.
Mary · 1:01:47
We have a lighting designer here. Go ahead, say more.
Reggie · 1:01:50
I love that.
George · 1:01:52
You know, if you're gonna be on a stage, be on a stage. Get out there. You know, don't just hide out in the background. When I first started improv, I was definitely kind of like, skittish about doing it wrong. And of course, there's no wrong, but just like doing it wrong or just not being impactful enough. But you don't really— you got to put yourself out there, basically.
Reggie · 1:02:11
Yeah, I think that is such a good metaphor in so many aspects of life. Yes. Find your light.
George · 1:02:17
Seriously, find your light, find your thing. But also, you gotta, you gotta get out there. Oh, oh, here's a piece of advice.
Tim · 1:02:24
Yes.
George · 1:02:24
I've definitely said this to people. It's kind of analogous. It's like, You can't grow unless you're uncomfortable.
Mary · 1:02:30
Yeah. We don't have to stop anymore. Keep it coming.
George · 1:02:36
Let's brew some tea and I can just—
Tim · 1:02:40
I really, really appreciate you coming.
George · 1:02:42
Thank you for having me.
Reggie · 1:02:43
This was super fun.
Tim · 1:02:44
Yeah, really good.
George · 1:02:45
Super fun.
Tim · 1:02:45
And I didn't even introduce anyone. So this was Reggie Tidwell.
Mary · 1:02:49
Oh, hang on. Do it again because I was talking over you.
Reggie · 1:02:51
You heard me. I'm Reggie Tidwell.
Mary · 1:02:54
I'm Mary Greene.
Tim · 1:02:55
And I'm Tim Scroggs, and we really appreciate you being here. We love that you hung out until this moment. If you're hearing me say this, you hung out a long time with us. We appreciate it. And the last thing I want to say is define your own success. Don't let— I'm learning this from Mary and now from George— don't let someone else's version of success define you. Define your own success, and then find your light. Get weird.
Reggie · 1:03:21
Get weird.
Tim · 1:03:22
Different ways of saying the same thing.
Reggie · 1:03:23
Get weird and find your light.
Tim · 1:03:24
Yeah, exactly. I love it. Thank you for being here. Thank you all for being here. Thank you, guys.
Reggie · 1:03:28
Bye.
George · 1:03:28
Bye.
Reggie · 1:03:29
That was awesome.
George · 1:03:30
George. That was super fun.
Tim · 1:03:31
That was so fun, man. I appreciate you being here.
Reggie · 1:03:34
It's funny, the Find Your Life thing makes me—
George · 1:03:37
Thanks for listening.
Tim · 1:03:39
This podcast was created and developed by our hosts, Reggie Tidwell, Tim Scroggs, and Mary Greene.
George · 1:03:46
Special thanks to our guest host, George Awad. Produced by Mary Greene.
Tim · 1:03:52
Live production and editing by me, Will Canady.
George · 1:03:55
Set design by Megan Scroggs. And very special thanks to Dylan Garcia.
Reggie · 1:04:00
Today's episode is presented lovingly by 40 Hearts, creators of enduring value.