Sexual Orientation, Signals & The Labels We're Outgrowing

Tim · 0:59
Welcome to Age. My name's Tim. I'll be your main host, and we are Reggie Tidwell, Mary Greene, and our guest today is Hannah Cole. Hannah Cole is the founder of Sunlight Tax, and we're really pumped to have her on. She's been a friend for a long time, and I like to ask a question to guests so that our audience can get to know them. What are you most obsessed with right now in your life?

Hannah · 1:21
Oh, reading.

Tim · 1:23
And I watched your podcast on reading.

Hannah · 1:26
Nice. Yeah, I've been doing a little miniseries on writing, interviewing nonfiction and fiction authors about just the writing journey. And I wrote a book this year, so it's a little self-interested, but It's made me interested in this whole world of publishing and reaching an audience.

Tim · 1:44
Was it the writing of the book that really got you into this? What is writing? What is reading?

Hannah · 1:49
No, it's not. It definitely got me into the writing process more, but honestly, it's just wanting to get off screens that's made me— I took a summer to just— I just set a baseline one summer. I was like, okay, I'm going to change my habit. I'm going to not do Netflix. I'm going to trade Netflix for books.

Reggie · 2:10
Nice.

Hannah · 2:10
And instantly my reading went through the roof, as you might imagine. And I was like, oh, this feels better because I don't stay up an hour past when I should and feel obligated to end at the time the show ends. I fall asleep when I'm ready to. It's more respectful of my body. That's a great point.

Tim · 2:32
Yeah.

Hannah · 2:32
And I'm not on a screen right before bed. It's like, just on a biological level, it feels better. And then I'm absorbed in all these stories, discovering all these writers. Now I'm at parties, I'm like, okay, what's the last book you read?

Reggie · 2:45
Tell me.

Hannah · 2:46
I'm like—

Reggie · 2:48
Doesn't hurt that you're in the coolest book club in Asheville too.

Hannah · 2:53
Maybe. I might be in a book club with Reggie's wife.

Tim · 2:56
Well, you may be reading what's in the book club, but what are you reading that you really love?

Reggie · 3:01
I read their hand-me-downs, I will say.

Hannah · 3:03
Nice. I am going to— okay, so I'm cheating on that book club. I'm going to another book club tonight.

Mary · 3:11
Oh my God. Paris.

Reggie · 3:13
Is she going to hear it?

Mary · 3:14
I'm just reading so much.

Hannah · 3:16
Paris can't keep up.

Tim · 3:16
One book club is not enough.

Reggie · 3:18
Paris can't book keep up.

Hannah · 3:21
For this one tonight, we're reading Just Kids by Patti Smith.

Reggie · 3:24
Oh, I don't know that one.

Hannah · 3:25
It's a classic, won the National Book Award. It's amazing, and I had never read it.

Reggie · 3:30
It's called Just Kids.

Tim · 3:31
Bring back the classics.

Hannah · 3:31
It's pretty great.

Tim · 3:32
It's amazing.

Hannah · 3:33
It's so, um, like right in New York of the '70s, '60s and '70s. Okay. Like what it was. I mean, she was homeless when she first lived there. It's, it's wild. The whole story is wild.

Reggie · 3:45
What's the name of your book? Where can people get it?

Hannah · 3:48
Sure. Um, my book is Taxes for Humans: How to Simplify Your Taxes and Change the World When You're Self-Employed.

Tim · 3:59
Look at that. That's a big vision.

Mary · 4:01
I put in a pre—

Reggie · 4:03
I put in a preorder for Taxes for Cats.

Tim · 4:05
Is that a follow-up?

Hannah · 4:11
Taxes for Cats is a blank book.

Tim · 4:13
Just pictures.

Hannah · 4:15
Just pictures.

Tim · 4:17
That would go really well.

Hannah · 4:18
Don't worry about it, cats.

Reggie · 4:19
Yeah, don't.

Tim · 4:19
Well, we're so happy.

Reggie · 4:20
We got you.

Tim · 4:21
We're so happy to have you on today.

Hannah · 4:23
Thanks.

Tim · 4:24
As you all know, this is a podcast where we chitchat about something random pulled out of a wastebasket for a long time, and if you stay long enough, it gets into some really good stuff, I promise. So I'm gonna pull out a topic.

Mary · 4:38
I'm glad we're owning it.

Tim · 4:39
You ready for this?

Mary · 4:39
I'm ready.

Tim · 4:40
Did Reggie give you the down-low on how this works with the pulling out of the trash can?

Hannah · 4:43
Yeah, and I, you know—

Tim · 4:44
Did you put any trash in here before we started?

Mary · 4:46
That has happened.

Reggie · 4:48
That has happened.

Hannah · 4:49
I could have snuck a topic in.

Reggie · 4:51
That has happened.

Hannah · 4:52
We would never know.

Reggie · 4:53
We would literally never know unless we pulled that topic. You would pull it and be like, I guess we wrote this down. I know, we don't even remember what we wrote on these things.

Tim · 5:01
This show is about— I'm not looking. This show is about thinking on your feet. We like it because there are a lot of times when we prepare so much and we perform, but this show is about who we are. We just brought what we have today and we have to respond.

Reggie · 5:16
Oh, we didn't do our little warm-up.

Tim · 5:17
We didn't do it. I was thinking about that, but we don't need it because today's topic, you won't need a warm-up.

Reggie · 5:23
Oh, okay.

Hannah · 5:24
I'm just kidding.

Tim · 5:25
You're gonna get a warm-up.

Mary · 5:26
You won't need a warm-up.

Tim · 5:27
Is it in focus?

Mary · 5:28
Are you warm? Better be.

Tim · 5:31
Sexual orientation.

Hannah · 5:32
Oh.

Reggie · 5:32
Oh, good. Interesting.

Tim · 5:34
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So maybe we should do our warmup now. No, I'm just kidding. Let's just get into this one.

Mary · 5:41
I don't feel like I'm ready. I'm feeling tokenized.

Hannah · 5:43
Okay.

Mary · 5:43
I'm feeling scared.

Tim · 5:46
Tokenized?

Mary · 5:46
I'm scared.

Reggie · 5:47
Why are you tokenized?

Mary · 5:47
Like a little scared, yeah.

Tim · 5:49
So we like to start out with like the initial first reaction, and I think that's good. You feel tokenized. That's like your initial—

Mary · 5:55
You've done nothing to me yet, but yeah.

Reggie · 5:57
Yeah, we're about to. You've done nothing to me yet.

Mary · 6:02
Yeah, how do you feel, Hannah, when that came out of the trash can?

Tim · 6:05
Immediate reaction.

Mary · 6:06
I got a little worried.

Hannah · 6:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim · 6:10
Jason?

Reggie · 6:11
I mean, I guess the first thing that comes to mind is I think that we are in a period of time where it has been long enough that there has been every possible sexual orientation that could be, And that it shouldn't be a hot topic. Like, we should be like, okay, like, all right, cool. That's like—

Tim · 6:38
That's your first thought?

Reggie · 6:38
Yeah, that was my very first thought was like, it's not a hot topic to me. It's like—

Mary · 6:44
He's like, put this back in the trash can.

Tim · 6:46
This is done. This is done, easy.

Reggie · 6:48
This is, yeah, it should be water under the bridge. So I don't know, I just think, I think the fact that, I mean, it's like racism. Like, the fact that we are living in a country where that's still actually an issue is beyond me. I'm like, other companies Other countries' companies, other countries are laughing at us like, oh, that's right, you guys have a race issue still and a sexual orientation issue apparently.

Tim · 7:14
I mean, I'll— maybe I'll say my first reaction before I respond to that, because I, after traveling around the world, I don't know that everyone else is free from these things. I don't think sexual orientation is like a free flow around the world.

Reggie · 7:28
Right, I'm sure.

Tim · 7:29
I think there are ancient tribes that had 2 spirits and they had an understanding of more fluid sexuality, but I think generally speaking, there is a, there is a mode. Everyone's kind of adopted the same mode, and it's breaking down in places I think that are maybe the most open to it, maybe the most wealthy, and can, you know, on Maslow's hierarchy of needs, to start to open your mind, you need certain aspects of your life settled. So if you're like starving in a foreign country, you know, you're not thinking about your sexual orientation as much.

Reggie · 8:02
Of course.

Tim · 8:03
You're just trying to survive.

Reggie · 8:04
Right.

Tim · 8:04
And sometimes you abide by the rules just to make that easier. But my first instinct was, I am the least, most boring sexual orientation, and maybe the hottest topic is my sexual orientation, being straight. Like, I feel that there is a—

Mary · 8:24
Hot take, Tim.

Tim · 8:25
No, it's not. It's that I think the other parts of that topic are more interesting and less loaded with a lot of the That, you know, like, it may be because it's been so hidden for so many years, for, you know, most of time, that now it's like the one that's kind of pulled out, like, why are you still straight? Like, haven't you— I even have a friend who, like, I even have a friend who keeps saying, you'll become more open in your sexual orientation. I'm like, are you telling— are you—

Mary · 8:58
Who's saying this to you? Nicky.

Tim · 9:00
Oh, well, and so—

Reggie · 9:02
Dude, he's trying to seduce you.

Mary · 9:03
No, he's not.

Tim · 9:04
He's honestly, I think he's honestly saying that we are so brainwashed to believe this is the only way you can be, and there's no scale— what's the right— spectrum.

Mary · 9:14
Totally.

Reggie · 9:15
Brain spectrum.

Tim · 9:16
That it's like you just have to accept that this is the way you are, and there's no, like, fluidity there. There's no—

Mary · 9:21
Yeah, I think in that way, like, you are you, Tim, and many, many people are sort of, like, in a box, like, confined because you were taught that this is the box. And I'm not Don't share more than you wanna share. But I do think that there is something to what Nicky said. I think as we age, we realize what labels were just sort of put on us, and you get to choose. Maybe it fits comfortably. Maybe that box is your home.

Reggie · 9:48
I think that's the key. Oh, go ahead, Hailey.

Hannah · 9:50
Well, I kind of feel like the issue is pretty simple, and what makes it hard is the fact that we need to define. Right? Like, if we all just accepted that it can kind of move in and out, it can shift over time. Maybe for some people it's super locked in and steady forever. I don't know. Maybe for others it's one way for a long time and actually shifts over time to another thing. Maybe some people know forever. I mean, you know, like—

Reggie · 10:15
I think that happens.

Hannah · 10:15
That it kind of moves.

Reggie · 10:17
Yeah.

Hannah · 10:17
'Cause I've really noticed, like, if you, I don't know, tell someone you're bi, which is even a term that has changed, right? pan, I think, because—

Mary · 10:27
Has it?

Hannah · 10:28
No, bi.

Mary · 10:28
We can get into this, Hannah.

Hannah · 10:30
Bi is out of fashion right now because it assumes a binary gender thing.

Reggie · 10:35
Right, right, exactly.

Hannah · 10:37
So getting away from that term is just whatever. Bi, open.

Tim · 10:41
Totally open.

Reggie · 10:41
Totally open.

Hannah · 10:43
Yeah, I feel like it's— I've seen people say, I'm bi, or be with a woman, be with a woman, for example. and then date a man, and everybody's like, what the hell? And this person is like—

Tim · 10:59
Why are you throwing us curveballs like that?

Reggie · 11:00
Yeah, right, right.

Hannah · 11:02
It's like, well, can't— it's only their expectation that made it feel weird that the other thing also happened.

Mary · 11:08
Can I add to that? Well, one, I've said for a long time, like, my sexual orientation doesn't matter unless you're trying to have sex with me. In which case, you would probably care one way or the other.

Reggie · 11:19
Right, right, right.

Tim · 11:20
That's the first question. Are you trying to have sex with me?

Mary · 11:22
Yeah, like, don't. Why do you care? But I think that that point is really well taken that a lot of people, it's almost like your sexual preference or like whoever you want to date needs to be approved or endorsed by even just your close group of friends. And it's almost like it needs to be— I don't want to use the word enforced, but there is this sense of like, we need to know how to pin you down about where you are on this. And it's like, why do I need that?

Reggie · 11:50
Yeah, right.

Hannah · 11:50
Well, actually, the kids.

Reggie · 11:52
And who's that for?

Mary · 11:53
All the kids.

Tim · 11:54
The kids are okay.

Hannah · 11:54
I have 2 daughters, so I'm gonna say my kids and their friends. And the age range here is 12 and 15. Their friend group, I have seen be like, you know, the adults are curious 'cause teenagers are kind of getting into the world of dating and crushes and all that stuff. And you might say like, oh, your friend is like, so she's gay, right? And they'll be like, Mom, no labels.

Reggie · 12:20
I love that.

Hannah · 12:21
I love that reaction.

Reggie · 12:22
I love that too.

Tim · 12:23
That's the best reaction.

Mary · 12:26
We actually talked about labels on another podcast.

Reggie · 12:28
Oh yeah, we had a show, we had a label show.

Mary · 12:30
And I remember one of the things that struck me, especially 'cause we're in branding, so like we wanna label everything, but I remember thinking there is this, there's an era for the label. And I think that with regard to sexual orientation, I hope that we're pushing past it for many reasons, not the least of which being it doesn't matter unless you're trying to have sex with me. But the idea that the label for a period of time, if people are unseen in that or unaccepted in that, that the label sort of gives you firepower, or it sort of gives you some structure to explain to people what's happening.

Hannah · 13:03
Yeah.

Mary · 13:03
But yeah, I think it becomes passé.

Hannah · 13:05
It's organic.

Mary · 13:05
Yes, exactly. So like, you've got bisexual for a while kind of meant like you go both ways. And now many people who held that label, used that label to explain to people their experience, have shifted to pan because it's much more accepting of the gender spectrum, which I'm afraid you two are gonna get tangled up in when we talk about this topic. No offense.

Tim · 13:29
I've seen the tangle.

Mary · 13:30
But yeah, it's super tangly. But I do think that eventually we just surrender. Eventually we just release and say, why do I need to define you and prescribe a label to dictate what I think, to predict your behavior, so to speak? Just let you wing it.

Tim · 13:50
So you know that whole thing when you're talking about racism and you say, I don't see color.

Mary · 13:55
Right. Yeah.

Tim · 13:56
And that's kind of a trap as well.

Reggie · 13:58
It is, because it's like bullshit.

Tim · 13:59
Yeah, it's like you're trying to ignore something that exists.

Reggie · 14:02
Like, are you blind?

Tim · 14:03
Is that similar to the, does the label matter unless you're trying to sex to me? Sex with me?

Reggie · 14:08
Sex to me? Sex to me.

Tim · 14:10
Are you trying to sex to me?

Reggie · 14:11
Don't sex to me.

Tim · 14:13
I mean, they could be trying to sex to you, you know?

Mary · 14:16
Tim's orientation is very specific. Well, I mean, let's talk about it, because I I'm of the opinion that, well, number one, it's not something you can see.

Reggie · 14:27
Right.

Tim · 14:28
Right. It's not an outward visible thing.

Mary · 14:29
Now, some people I think make an effort. We've talked about this before too. Some people I think make an effort to signal that part of themselves.

Reggie · 14:35
Totally.

Mary · 14:36
For a lot of different reasons.

Reggie · 14:37
As they would say, flamboyant. I don't know if that term's even still—

Mary · 14:40
Hey, this is a signal.

Reggie · 14:41
There you go.

Tim · 14:42
Let me see it.

Hannah · 14:42
Well, actually, you know what? It used to be. Even as I say that—

Tim · 14:46
A ring. I was like, I'm trying to read an inscription, but it's like a little bitty ring. Totally.

Reggie · 14:50
That's right. It's a signal.

Tim · 14:50
I haven't worn mine so long, I've forgotten what a wedding ring is.

Reggie · 14:53
Yeah.

Tim · 14:54
I became allergic to mine.

Reggie · 14:55
My Oura ring became my wedding ring because I didn't want to wear more than one ring.

Tim · 15:00
Does it tell you how your marriage is doing?

Reggie · 15:01
Yeah, I know, right? Let me see. Let me look in the app and see what it says.

Mary · 15:06
When you all both revealed these truths to me, I remember thinking, that's so weird.

Reggie · 15:12
Like, what?

Mary · 15:13
Just that, like, I know how committed both of you are in your marriages and how important that is. And I'm a person, I'm not married and I'm not sure that we will get married, but it's not a big deal. We're like, he's mine for life, period. But I think it was surprising to me that you two were a little non-traditional as it related to your wedding rings, because you seem to me like people who would be traditional.

Reggie · 15:33
Be more traditional, yeah.

Tim · 15:34
That's what I'm saying.

Reggie · 15:35
Oh, that I so easily swapped out my actual band with an Oura Ring?

Mary · 15:39
It's interesting that technology is in there with you in Paris.

Reggie · 15:43
Right.

Mary · 15:43
You know, like there's a third—

Tim · 15:44
Does it track me?

Mary · 15:45
Third party in this marriage.

Tim · 15:48
I never thought about this, but you probably are being tracked. Like, why did your heart rate go to like 120?

Reggie · 15:54
I'm pretty sure my Apple Watch has something to say about that. A marriage aura ring. Usually after you start an activity, it's like, are you on a hike? It's like, are you having sex right now?

Mary · 16:06
I heard about this friend group where a lot of them had Apple Watches and the watch would suggest, are you wrestling?

Reggie · 16:12
Are you wrestling?

Mary · 16:15
could see you and they had been wrestling.

Reggie · 16:18
I'm gonna be like, yeah, I'm wrestling.

Tim · 16:20
That is the oldest—

Reggie · 16:20
That's what we'll call it. That's what we'll call it, wrestling.

Tim · 16:24
Why was it 2 and a half minutes? It's a quick match.

Reggie · 16:27
Honey, you wanna wrestle tonight?

Tim · 16:29
That's the oldest way to explain a sexual encounter.

Hannah · 16:30
I'm only up for a 5-minute wrestle.

Reggie · 16:32
I know, yeah, we were just wrestling.

Mary · 16:34
Just a quickie.

Reggie · 16:34
I will say this though. I feel like, I feel like the very root emotion around sexual orientation should be that you like who you like. Right?

Hannah · 16:45
Yeah.

Reggie · 16:46
Like, I've never— I mean, I'm attracted to men in the way that, like, I'm attracted to Tim because of the things that we love together. Like, we're bros. We're like, um, but I've never been sexually attracted to men. I can look at a man and say, wow, that's a beautiful man, he's attractive, but I'm not like, God, I want to have sex with him. And that's okay. But I think the people that do feel that shouldn't have to hide behind it, shouldn't have to feel a certain kind of way about it. I will say that I had young man who sort of reached out to me for counsel because as sort of more of as an elder, he's a young man, he's like in his early 20s, super, super sweet kid, love him. But he was grappling with that. He grew up in an environment where his family was very, very opposed to male-male, you know, they, they're very like nuclear family kind of vibe. And he had these urges and he was trying to understand what he should do. Does— like, is this something— and I always encourage him, dude, be who you are. Like, what you feel is inside you, like, that's who you are. You can't suppress that because it's gonna come out in your life in other ways that are probably not gonna be very healthy. And the last I checked in with him, he's open. I think he's like—

Hannah · 18:05
Mm-hmm.

Reggie · 18:05
And he's living his best life. He's like traveling, he's happy, And every time I would see him, he would be so sad and afraid and timid and afraid somebody was going to be onto him. And so I think, man, just fucking be yourself, right?

Mary · 18:22
Well, I think—

Tim · 18:23
Easier said than done.

Hannah · 18:25
Yes, easier. I mean, when— I think when the label goes against you, when you fall outside the boundary or you feel like basically society says you can't, you shouldn't exist. That's the hard one.

Reggie · 18:37
I know, and I say fuck society.

Hannah · 18:38
I mean, I do too.

Tim · 18:39
You have to stand in a line. That's the different line, you know? Like, most people are in this line, and there's like a small percentage in that line. You've got to go over there and stand over there, and that's like putting yourself kind of at odds with the others.

Reggie · 18:51
I know, then I—

Tim · 18:51
The ones that agree, it's like I grew up thinking you'd go to hell for it. Like, I remember hearing things about getting AIDS if I was gay. I grew up in the time when that was hand-in-hand trade-off.

Reggie · 19:02
Right.

Tim · 19:03
And I don't know how many—

Hannah · 19:05
It was propaganda.

Tim · 19:06
No one— everyone doesn't have to answer this, but did everyone here explore when they were younger?

Hannah · 19:11
Explore sexually?

Tim · 19:14
You know, like sexual orientation when you were like a kid. I remember exploring different sexual orientations as a kid, but it was so intense that like sometimes I wonder if I would have been raised in an open household, right, if which way it would have gone, because your mind is not there to say you can't do this, right?

Reggie · 19:32
You've been trained.

Tim · 19:34
You're just kind of going on what you're attracted Right. And you don't even really think one is wrong, like I do, because I was raised that way. You just kind of go with like this intuitive feeling.

Hannah · 19:45
I, I will out myself. I'm bi or pan, whatever.

Mary · 19:50
Thank you for being here, Hannah. We're so glad.

Hannah · 19:52
Oh yeah, I feel tokenized.

Reggie · 19:55
The token bench.

Mary · 19:56
I'm so scared.

Reggie · 19:57
That's the token bench.

Mary · 19:58
Here we go. Thank you. Carry on.

Hannah · 20:00
But I I think I represent a huge demographic of women my age who basically had feelings in all directions, but only pursued men.

Reggie · 20:12
Right.

Hannah · 20:13
Basically, I grew up knowing I wanted kids.

Reggie · 20:16
Yeah, right.

Hannah · 20:16
And so it was just like, well, you know, even, I did grow up in a really open household, an atheist household, and it wasn't like, that wasn't part of the equation.

Reggie · 20:27
Right.

Hannah · 20:27
And yet I still, like, just the sort of meta message of the culture was like, well, you can't have a family That's an alternative lifestyle. Alternative means you can't do the boring stuff.

Tim · 20:39
Yeah, right.

Reggie · 20:39
Your alternative lifestyle.

Tim · 20:41
You have to have a completely alternative life.

Hannah · 20:43
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I mean, I am an artist. I'm like doing alternative also in my life. But, you know, it's just interesting. And I saw— I listened to Dan Savage's podcast, The Savage Lovecast. He's like a sex writer.

Mary · 20:57
Oh, cool.

Hannah · 20:58
He's a gay man. in Seattle who has this unbelievably popular sex advice column.

Reggie · 21:05
Oh, nice.

Hannah · 21:05
Initially for straight people, now it's for everybody.

Reggie · 21:07
Oh, how funny.

Mary · 21:08
But it's awesome.

Hannah · 21:09
It's kind of like the original Queer Eye for the straight guys.

Reggie · 21:11
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hannah · 21:12
Sex advice.

Reggie · 21:12
God, I used to love that show.

Hannah · 21:13
Wow. But he has given— he does a lot of stats and has a lot of scientists on about like research and studies about this stuff. And he was saying that like women, Coming out as bi is this, especially in the age group of like 40s and 50s, is like off the chain.

Reggie · 21:34
Oh, really?

Hannah · 21:35
Basically because society has opened up the acceptability.

Mary · 21:39
Well, there was comp het for so long.

Hannah · 21:41
Explain what that is.

Mary · 21:43
Compulsory heterosexuality. I'm looking at the men behind the camera to tell me about these women.

Tim · 21:50
Will seems to know a lot of things.

Mary · 21:52
Will and I run in the same circles.

Tim · 21:54
Where's Will's microphone?

Reggie · 21:55
I know.

Mary · 21:57
But the idea that like, it's similar to what you both were saying earlier, that it was just compulsory. Like early in life, it was just assumed that you were going to be heterosexual, and you were trained with frameworks that made you think you were heterosexual. And even if you acknowledged that maybe you deviated outside of that a little bit, I think a lot of people, in particular women, would say, well, I'm straight, I just think she's really pretty, or like, I'm straight, but I just have this one little thing. And so I think a lot of women in particular are awakening to, oh, maybe there was another pathway for me this whole time. I'm sorry, I just—

Hannah · 22:33
No, I, yeah, I've met women who grew up in households more like yours, Tim, who have said to me, yeah, I'm straight, I've had a lot of threesomes, I've been with women, I'm straight. It sort of doesn't track. I think you might be fitting that into your worldview, but not the actual thing that you're doing.

Mary · 22:52
Everybody gets to try everything once, but when you're going back to try again and again and again, I think you might have a preference.

Hannah · 22:58
It's the 2x2 stack.

Reggie · 23:00
All right, I've had a threesome, but I was in my 20s, and it was, it was a couple.

Mary · 23:07
We should have had a confetti gun.

Reggie · 23:09
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim · 23:11
I thought you were gonna say a confessional something, but you said confetti. I love that flip.

Mary · 23:15
That's happening too.

Reggie · 23:16
I know.

Tim · 23:16
From confession to confetti.

Reggie · 23:18
Confessy. Confetti.

Tim · 23:20
Confessional.

Reggie · 23:21
No, but it was, it was with a couple and there was no guy-guy stuff, but it wasn't like, there was nothing about it that I found appalling. Like, it was like, I was, you know, I was young. I was happy to be in the room. What'd you say you were, 20?

Hannah · 23:37
25.

Tim · 23:37
25?

Reggie · 23:37
I was in wrapping up college-ish. No, I graduated when I was 27, so I was still in college. But it was— I don't think it was— there wasn't anything in that scenario that made me go, wow, I like looking at his parts. There was nothing like— it was just, it was just 3 friends like having an experience, and I was obviously into the, the the woman in that particular scenario. I will say that I don't know, I don't know where it happens or if it is a trained thing. I've always been into women. I just remember being in preschool and getting in trouble because this girl next to me and I in the classroom were touching each other's business in the classroom.

Tim · 24:28
Nice and easy.

Mary · 24:29
You were born this way, Reggie.

Reggie · 24:31
I was in preschool, and so—

Mary · 24:33
I mean, everybody's curious. Everybody's curious. And when you were talking about that young man that you were counseling about how to—

Reggie · 24:40
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mary · 24:42
How to move through his life, one of the things that came up to me was, well, how comfortable are we societally with people even expressing sexual urges?

Tim · 24:52
Right, yeah.

Mary · 24:52
'Cause I think that's the other thing, is the feeling like you can't express attraction to anybody. You know, even in a completely— I don't know, like touching hands is so taboo.

Reggie · 25:04
I know. I think that's unfortunate though. I think the world needs to get over itself. I think ultimately people need to just let people do what they want.

Tim · 25:12
Quote of the day.

Hannah · 25:13
Yeah.

Mary · 25:14
I just saw a plaque pop up above his head.

Tim · 25:16
The world needs to get over itself.

Reggie · 25:18
Seriously, so many people are so busy concerned about what other people's interests are that they aren't even living their own lives. They're so bottled up.

Mary · 25:27
Or taking the time to figure out who you are.

Reggie · 25:30
A lot of times the people—

Mary · 25:31
It's a fairly easy process.

Reggie · 25:32
And I think, and this is my opinion, that the people that are the most outspoken about who other people are interested in and who they love are people that have repressed feelings of their own and they don't express them. So they're like, why do they get to? It's just like this, it's like a projection, you know? They're just really angry because they don't get to do that thing because of whatever societal norms they've decided to let push them down. It's— I don't know, it's a sad thing to me.

Hannah · 25:59
I'll tell you that even as an artist, I feel this. Like, there are a lot of people in the world who have a lot of shitty things to say about artists and pursuing a career in the arts. And I think—

Reggie · 26:10
oh yeah, yeah, I think that's—

Hannah · 26:11
I think you're describing the phenomenon. It's like, well, I don't get to do that, why do you get to?

Reggie · 26:15
Yeah, why do you get to go and play and be creative and do this thing? No, I think that's exactly right. And I think—

Tim · 26:20
I think people are also intimidated by I mean, that's true. I think like if— I don't know how you came to understand. If you always only ever liked women, how did you ever understand what it would be like to want a man as a man?

Reggie · 26:35
I think if the urge had come— I think that's the thing. I think if the urge had been there, I would have explored it, or I would have—

Tim · 26:42
I guess what I'm asking is, how would you understand that from their perspective, from someone who does Who is gay, how would you understand that if you've never had it?

Mary · 26:52
Do you think you can?

Reggie · 26:53
Oh, I don't think—

Tim · 26:53
That's what I don't know. I'm just saying, you're saying the world get over themselves, but there is that intimidation that comes with like, well, I don't understand that, or it grosses me out, and then they put each other at odds.

Reggie · 27:03
Here's the thing, and I think it takes an emotional maturity. One of my really close friends in college was gay. He's the one, he's the reason why I became a vegetarian, because I was eating eating shitty fucking McDonald's and stuff like that on a college budget, and then saw him as a vegetarian eating all this really delicious food, and I'm like, dude, show me the way. But he was gay, and he became one of my best friends in college.

Tim · 27:30
Good relationship.

Reggie · 27:32
I think that relationship helped me move beyond whatever misunderstandings I had. the way, the way I looked at it, because we would go camping in our friend group and we'd all be talking about, you know, we're a bunch of dudes and we're talking about our experiences and whatever, whatever, as young men do. And we're around the campfire and he's talking about his experience. He's talking about wrestling with this other dude and, uh, and it turned into sex. And I— and of course those initial conversations were like a little uncomfortable because I hadn't heard them. Like, oh, I don't know. But the more I knew that I loved him as a friend, Mm-hmm. and the more I understood that he didn't, he had almost the same reaction hearing about us talking about our relationships with our female partners, that it was just, it just helped me understand at a fairly early age that who we love is who we love. Nobody can tell us who that is. And if it makes you uncomfortable, then this isn't content for you. Like, move on. Like, so I just, I think I just learned that it didn't matter. You know, he was happy. I saw him beaming talking about his experiences, and that's what mattered to me.

Tim · 28:49
There's a level of intimacy there, and I think people confuse intimacy with sex.

Reggie · 28:55
Yeah, oftentimes.

Tim · 28:56
There was an intimacy with this friend who you could share some of his experience because he let you into—

Reggie · 29:02
Yeah, to that side of himself, right?

Tim · 29:04
Right. And you knew him as a person. I think that that's such a— the phenomenon for me to acknowledge is that understanding comes through intimacy. And when I— like, I grew up in a family, and I've said this before, that was very against this. But whenever my dad meets someone who is gay and talks to them, there is zero judgment, there's zero hate. It's literally like insane amounts of love. I would say even sometimes more than I see him in a normal situation. So it's like— it's because when you're with someone person to person, when it's not being hyped up as this huge political objective and, and the, and the storylines are getting all branded to create tension and to create, you know, just problems or stress, when someone is together, 2 people, friends, there is a mutual understanding. There's a natural understanding.

Hannah · 30:00
Yeah.

Tim · 30:00
A human understanding. And so it's funny because I'll out myself. I've never had sex with anyone but my wife. And this is a weird phenomenon in this world. Even Reggie's like, what? I literally, I was married so young and I grew up in such a strict household that I went from my own world into the married world, and that's been my world ever since. So it's almost like I don't even know how to speak on the topic because I've never even explored or ventured down what it feels like to be on the outside or being the outcast and having to stand up in that level of awareness of yourself.

Reggie · 30:42
Are you happy?

Tim · 30:45
Totally.

Reggie · 30:45
It doesn't matter.

Tim · 30:46
And the thing is that when I was exploring as a kid, I remember not knowing that I was doing something sexual.

Reggie · 30:55
Really?

Tim · 30:56
But I knew because I got spanked for it.

Reggie · 30:59
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tim · 31:00
When I remember the memory before I got caught, I didn't know what sexual was. I didn't know what anything was.

Mary · 31:07
Maybe you were like, this feels good.

Tim · 31:08
Right, it was just fun. And then I got spanked pretty hard for it, and that's what started to define for me what this really meant, like what these actions that I'm taking are. And I, I don't know that it convinced me I was straight, but I currently have all— like, I'm not attracted to men. I think—

Hannah · 31:30
I think—

Reggie · 31:30
Aww.

Hannah · 31:32
I mean— Well, I was—

Mary · 31:34
I would also say more than many men that I meet, particularly in your age group, groups, you two have a capacity for intimacy with other men that not everybody does. And I see— I think that's a lot of the reason that, um, you have a lot of male friends and they really enjoy being around you, is because you offer that freely and you're not freaked out by people wanting to be close.

Tim · 31:54
I was just gonna say that.

Reggie · 31:55
I see that. Like, sometimes you'll see me put my foot on Tim or something.

Hannah · 32:01
Yeah.

Reggie · 32:01
And most— I think there are a lot of guys that would just get to a certain level of—

Mary · 32:06
You touch each other.

Reggie · 32:07
Oh, uncomfortable with that.

Mary · 32:08
They call you gay.

Reggie · 32:09
Yeah, they call you gay.

Tim · 32:10
That was like the cutdown, and it made you freakishly aware of anyone touching you or looking at you in a certain way or saying something to you. And so it's like so much, so much teaching, like subconscious teaching that we were going through as forming minds, like forming humans.

Reggie · 32:28
I think once you reached a level where you understand that being called gay isn't an insult, then none of that other stuff matters.

Hannah · 32:35
When I was growing up, my brother is gay, not bi, gay. And he didn't— and we grew up in Catholic Boston, and he didn't— he knew before anybody else in the family knew. And even despite the family being pretty open and it seeming like he would openly talk about it. The culture again was so strong around us that he didn't feel he could. And long story short, like, he was on the hockey— my dad was a professional hockey player at a point in his life. He was my brother's hockey coach.

Reggie · 33:14
That's awesome.

Hannah · 33:15
My brother didn't want to play hockey, but he did out of a sense of like obligation to my dad.

Tim · 33:19
Yeah, be a good son, right?

Hannah · 33:21
Exactly. And so there was actually this like father-son role dynamic definition thing happening in our family where Alex felt he couldn't like come out because of an expectation from my dad that wasn't even really a sexual—

Reggie · 33:37
It was an implied role.

Mary · 33:38
It gets very gendered too, right? Like, this is what a son— this— a lot of what we're talking about is my current deconstruction is, okay, how did the subtle subliminal messages that I received either from my culture surrounding my school or my parents themselves affect how I viewed my own sexuality and how I felt comfortable or not expressing that sexuality, even just in words, even just to say something simple like, I'm attracted to them, or I would like to take them on a date, or whatever. But I think it's interesting how tied up gender gets in that.

Reggie · 34:15
Sure.

Mary · 34:15
And there are these behaviors that we expect out of people that have nothing to do with sex, but it's just like how you're supposed to spend your days as a man is different.

Hannah · 34:24
Totally. I mean, it sounds like it's sort of close friendship is risky for a man of your age.

Reggie · 34:29
It can be. I mean, I guess in this societal risks, but—

Tim · 34:33
Yeah.

Hannah · 34:35
I will say about my brother and my father, one of the interesting things, there was a complete dynamic shift in our family. There was some turmoil in the years we were working this out, but ultimately it made my father such a better father for my brother to come out because Basically what he did was throw out the script.

Reggie · 34:54
Yeah.

Tim · 34:55
Finally reached him from a—

Hannah · 34:57
for the first time ever, instead of like this, these unspoken things sort of making them both feel boxed into a thing they didn't want to really do, my father finally looked at my brother like, I don't actually know who you are. Let me, let me actually observe who you are rather than imposing an idea.

Reggie · 35:17
I love that.

Tim · 35:18
Damn, that is—

Reggie · 35:19
That's amazing. That's emotional maturity right there.

Tim · 35:23
I think every father should find that point. Right. What if every father started like that?

Hannah · 35:27
It's guided my parenting because it was such a restriction on my brother. He was so held in by it to a damaging degree. It made me realize it's just an expectation as a parent of your kid and even a completely unwritten one. is, is, can be really like hindering, like binding their feet.

Reggie · 35:48
I would say this, my, when my, when my son was, I guess he was probably around 2, I think going between like 2 and 3, he went through this phase where he only liked wearing girls' clothes. Like he loved skirts. And, and as a father who already has 3 daughters, there was a part of me that was like, I had to face, well, what if he does end up preferring this?

Mary · 36:17
Or he's transgender.

Reggie · 36:18
Yeah. What if he ends up trans? What if he grows up trans? What if he prefers men? Whatever. I had to go through that process early and process that. And one of the things that actually kept coming to mind and was sort of my guide was remembering And my friend that I mentioned earlier, when he was the one that was in college, his parents were so accepting of his sexual orientation. Like, they absolutely loved him. We all used to have dinners with them, and to see how they were with him just lit me up because I had so many other friends that didn't have that experience. They either hadn't come out, couldn't come out, were afraid to come out, Or they came out and their parents disowned them. And I knew that regardless of what any of my kids decided, whatever path they chose sexually, that my best hat to wear is just love, just to love them and don't have any judgments. Because that, just seeing how that impacts even religious, like I had a friend who was a Jehovah's Witness. witness, her whole family disowned her when she decided to leave. And her mom, her own mom, wouldn't even talk to her. Her own sister wouldn't talk to her. And that kind of stuff breaks my heart. So to hear that your dad became a better father just by taking off, just throwing away the script, and just loving his son and getting to know his son, that's all that matters. Like, that's the thing that really, I think, should guide every parent.

Hannah · 37:56
For sure.

Tim · 37:56
I'm having trouble bringing this one back to business. So if we were going to talk about sexual orientation as it relates to business—

Reggie · 38:05
I don't think there is a—

Tim · 38:06
I do think that there's something to me, I guess—

Reggie · 38:09
I mean, branding tends to— do you brand and do you try to— like, if you were trying to— well, we had the opportunity of a condom brand recently. We actually didn't move forward, but it wasn't because of us. I think the particular client was still trying to figure some things out. But I started thinking like, who's the audience and how do we reach an audience that is non-binary? And like, what does that advertising look like? What do we—

Mary · 38:38
See, you're getting tangled.

Reggie · 38:39
Am I getting tangled?

Mary · 38:41
I think non-binary refers to gender.

Tim · 38:44
That's what I was wondering, the tangling between sexual orientation and gender identification.

Mary · 38:48
Can I give you some fodder?

Reggie · 38:49
Yeah, yeah. Fodder me up.

Mary · 38:50
I'll be your fodder.

Tim · 38:53
Fodder me, Mary.

Reggie · 38:55
Mary, you are my fodder.

Mary · 38:57
There is this— there are these 2 drag queens that I enjoy watching their podcast. I actually enjoy watching their old podcast. Now they've got some new podcasts, and Will knows what I'm talking about. It's Trixie Mattel and Katya Zvezdovonskaya.

Tim · 39:09
Oh, that's a great last name.

Reggie · 39:12
What a mouthful.

Mary · 39:13
That's not her real name, but Trixie and Katya, and they did a show called Uh for a long time.

Reggie · 39:19
It's called Uh?

Mary · 39:20
It's called Uh. They actually do it like super sexual.

Reggie · 39:24
Oh, I love that.

Tim · 39:26
American boy.

Mary · 39:26
And they do the—

Tim · 39:27
Say it right.

Mary · 39:27
We gotta do this in business. I think the, well, one of the things that they have talked about on that episode, on those podcasts and on their new podcast is around Pride Month and how many, many brands will just sort of bandwagon and jump on board, which I'm sure many of them are doing it in the spirit of of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and trying to make sure that queer people feel they have a place in the brand. But they have this joke where it's like, oh, it's June again, you're at the Pride Parade, and Target's there, and you go, hi gay, do you want some fill in the blank? And so I just, hi gay is a really great way to greet someone of that persuasion.

Hannah · 40:04
I mean, yeah.

Mary · 40:05
But the idea that these brands get to sort of co-opt some labels and make a profit off of it or try to sell you things to identify with your queer or non-traditional sexual orientation. I don't know, it's kind of risky territory these days. And yet we want people to feel seen and loved in the brand.

Hannah · 40:27
Right.

Mary · 40:28
So it's this tricky— I've been at employers where there's like an LGBTQ+ affinity group within the organization. And I think to myself, well, Sure, it'd be great to hang out with some people who understand the challenges, but is this important to my job? Is the question I start to ask. Is this important that I have this here, or can I just have it other places? I don't know.

Tim · 40:52
Okay, so think about this for a second, and this comes out of maybe the book you just gave me to read, which I've been reading nonstop.

Mary · 40:59
I'm indoctrinating.

Hannah · 41:00
I keep slipping.

Reggie · 41:00
Oh, nice.

Tim · 41:01
It's called the—

Mary · 41:02
What Is Post-Branding?

Tim · 41:03
What Is Post-Branding? So, I guess what I'm reading in this book is branding has created containers, and these containers hold someone to them. They don't allow for freedom. The whole idea of brand guidelines is so that no one goes outside of the guidelines. And I've always known that, but I never thought of it as like keeping you from—

Mary · 41:25
It's a prison.

Tim · 41:26
—freely expressing what it is that changes day to day in your life and in your work. And so I was wondering, and as you were talking, how much of sexual orientation is a vibe?

Mary · 41:37
Oh, it's a whole vibe.

Tim · 41:40
Right. So like, and how much of it isn't? How much have— how much has branding from Target or from any other company trying to capture this vibe? What's the data on how these people talk? What's the data on how these people— what's their vibe? Like, do they— are they flamboyant? Like, they've caricaturized an orientation, but what if there isn't really a vibe to sexual orientation? What if everyone has a human vibe, and how they sexually orientate doesn't mean they're like, I'm—

Mary · 42:08
And this is how I look and act and talk.

Tim · 42:10
Right. Like, Will and Grace promoted this gay man that's funny and says, and this way—

Mary · 42:16
Pulls down a real job and is very, you know, and he was very straight presenting, by the way.

Reggie · 42:20
Yeah, he was very straight presenting.

Mary · 42:22
I'm very interested interested in this, what you're saying.

Reggie · 42:24
Zach wasn't.

Mary · 42:24
As someone who— I contain multitudes, of course. But I think that it— we have started to align, like, oh, to be— to hold a non-traditional sexual orientation or to feel that way inside yourself is to align yourself with queer identity, is to align yourself with a lot of other counterculture causes so often. But I think there are a lot of people who don't really care for it. And yet, so where's the place? Like, the people who express the way that they feel authentically expresses them don't accept them. And so either they can sort of like try to merge into this other group, which happens. Most of the queer spaces that I enter try to be very open. But I'll say this, in Asheville, if you walk into a queer event and you're the only one with no tattoos, I'm looking at Will because he got a tattoo without me and I'm really mad.

Hannah · 43:11
Ooh.

Mary · 43:12
It's like a, you know, You're different. It's different. So I'm interested in this. What is the signal?

Tim · 43:20
What have we turned into a caricature of what this is? So like, I was driving to school this morning and I was telling my daughter that we were trying to figure out where words come from, like Subaru and Atari. And my son knows all these things. Like, that's Japanese.

Reggie · 43:37
There's a Subaru convention now. There were 7 Subarus around my car when I pulled in.

Mary · 43:41
Are you serious about there being a convention?

Reggie · 43:43
No, there's literally yours, Dave's, there's 7 Subarus in one half of the parking lot.

Tim · 43:49
Yeah, that's crazy, it shouldn't surprise you.

Reggie · 43:50
I should print some flyers out.

Tim · 43:52
It was just a car choice of Ashel. Anyway, so—

Hannah · 43:53
I think of brand identity.

Tim · 43:55
Anyway, there is—

Mary · 43:56
Yeah, is there a queerer car brand? I don't know that there is.

Reggie · 44:00
Oh yeah, sorry to interrupt, go ahead.

Tim · 44:02
Anyway, so— Caricatures, blah blah. Yeah, words.

Mary · 44:07
Where did words come from?

Tim · 44:09
Whatever.

Hannah · 44:09
Subaru, Atari. There's a Subaru.

Tim · 44:11
Conference in Asheville. That's what we're saying. I don't know where I was going. Whatever.

Reggie · 44:16
Oh no, did I kill your idea? I'm so sorry.

Mary · 44:20
Um, we're trying so hard to get this back to business.

Reggie · 44:24
I will, I will say this though.

Tim · 44:25
I'll get it back.

Reggie · 44:27
It'll come back. But I will say that every— in the same way that we try to, in businesses, strive for diversity, good companies do anyway, I feel like there should be someone gay on every team because that's a lens that I think needs to be presented. And I say that because some of my favorite things have come from my gay friends, like Absolutely Fabulous and House of Yes with Parker Posey, like things that I wouldn't gravitate towards.

Tim · 44:57
But what I'm saying is those are brand things. Those are mantras and mottos.

Reggie · 45:04
But they are a vibe.

Tim · 45:05
That become the vibe of being gay, right? So if you're not doing those vibes, you're acting straight. So what I'm saying is, what if the disconnect we're having is because the vibe is the—

Reggie · 45:17
We're not vibe matched?

Tim · 45:18
No, it's not. It doesn't matter. What if there is no vibe to being gay? What if being gay is something you are and you don't have to use these words, you don't have to dress like this, and you don't have to do this?

Mary · 45:27
Well, can I say about gay for black? Think about that for a minute. We have been co-opting culture from Black people for a really long—

Tim · 45:36
I say we white people, in like music and—

Mary · 45:38
yeah, it's like anything cool that has come out of America pretty much has started with Black people.

Tim · 45:45
So I'm just like talking about token Black people.

Reggie · 45:49
But I think I'm here for your reference point.

Tim · 45:53
It's, it's— you're trying to identify, right?

Hannah · 45:55
Yeah, I agree with that. But I also think when you're Black, it's visible.

Reggie · 46:00
Yeah. Yeah. You can't hide it.

Hannah · 46:03
And actually, to your point of my sexual orientation only matters if you want to have sex to me. Sex to me?

Tim · 46:09
It's a thing. Say it. Give me more sex to me. You want to have sex to me?

Reggie · 46:17
Should we just call this episode Sex to Me?

Mary · 46:19
Sex to me means so many things. We should all write a Oh, look at that. Sex to me.

Hannah · 46:29
Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Mary · 46:30
We're with you.

Hannah · 46:31
But you have to signal.

Reggie · 46:32
Yeah.

Hannah · 46:33
To have sex, you have to signal.

Reggie · 46:35
Yeah. You have to.

Hannah · 46:36
It's required. It's part of the deal.

Reggie · 46:38
It's part of the dance.

Hannah · 46:39
Well, but— and it's the dance.

Reggie · 46:40
Yeah.

Mary · 46:40
But flirting these days, I mean, we've got all kinds of statistics saying that young people are having less sex than we did, which compared to my generation, I'm just like, oh God, I didn't think it could get any worse. But I think like it's getting worse. Down to zero.

Tim · 46:53
Yeah.

Mary · 46:54
Well, you hear stories about the '60s and '70s and where things went, and here we are all buttoned up and puritanical again. But it is so— at least through my experience, if you're in the wrong place, flirting even, just like the idea of eye contact and a little leading line can be so high risk. It can be such a scary thing.

Tim · 47:18
Because you're gonna signal and you're gonna—

Reggie · 47:20
You're signaling. So now you're opening up this road.

Mary · 47:23
And I mean, there's a lot of, in female queer communities, there's a lot of like, what's going— is it really happening? It's almost like a secret code that you have to uncover.

Tim · 47:32
So you're trying to find your people, is what you're trying to do. And this is what branding is all about, finding your people and getting laid in a business sense.

Mary · 47:40
That's the thing.

Hannah · 47:41
So I feel like we're moving around this idea of like labels and identities and cultural expectations Being restrictive and imprisoning, but also at times being necessary to sort of say, I'm in this camp. Are you in this camp? Are you a safe person to somebody hanging out with?

Mary · 48:04
That's critical what you just said about, am I a safe person? So much of the signaling that I do is to try to seem safe, is try to be like, oh, this is a haven for you here. Don't be afraid.

Reggie · 48:16
I will agree with that.

Mary · 48:17
Unless you're a straight white man.

Hannah · 48:18
Which actually shows the value of the—

Tim · 48:20
Unless you're me.

Reggie · 48:22
I mean, gosh, man, you hit the nail on the head, both of you, because I do feel like I do that even just as a Black person in a predominantly white community. I mean, just being even in a hardware store, I've been in hardware stores where I've had negative experiences where someone was very Aryan Nation-like and I did the head nod and he just stared right through me and just weird, fucking weird macho bullshit. But then I'll see somebody else and I will find, I will, you know, we're walking down an aisle, I do this thing where I, like, you signal that, you know, if you are intimidated by me because of my color, you don't need to be. You know, there's this like, you know, hey, you know, whatever it is.

Mary · 49:03
Yeah.

Reggie · 49:04
And I'm checking my environment to see if you're safe person. If you're— I think you're right. It's this maybe subconscious thing that I'm consciously aware of.

Tim · 49:13
So I think it's a line then. It's not— I do agree there is this place where you're trying to find your people, and that's how movements start. Yeah. You know, like even like Black Lives Matter. Yeah. But then when the branding takes ownership, co-opts these movements, these vibes, and tries to make them these capitalistic, optimizable—

Hannah · 49:35
Hi, gay!

Tim · 49:36
Right, sellable things or attractable things. Like, how do we get more gay people in? How do we get more transgender people in? Instead of it being their culture and you're just open to everybody.

Hannah · 49:49
Yeah.

Tim · 49:50
Now, I don't know—

Mary · 49:50
Appropriating.

Tim · 49:51
And I don't know which one goes too far, like opening your doors and even bringing things in your store that are part of the vibe culturally is cool. It's just when you try to control and own the vibe, yeah, that's when branding starts to be an oppressive force. Yeah, of like a holding, a holding together. So I— oh, so I got it. What I was remembering in the car when I was— those words is I was saying anime. So one of Lila's friends says anime is supposed to be said another way than we say it.

Hannah · 50:21
Anime.

Tim · 50:22
And then, and then Ezra's like, no, Oh, in Japan they say it anime. And, and then I started saying it like I was in Japan, like in a Japanese accent. And Lila's like, that is so racist. I'm like, no, when I was in Spanish class, my Spanish teacher told me the more you bring out the dialect, the dialect, or the— it's overacted, the more it sounds right. And so I started saying these things and she's like, you sound gay. Not like bad. Wait, you literally sound like a gay guy talking.

Reggie · 50:49
Your daughter said that?

Tim · 50:50
Right, yeah.

Reggie · 50:51
Oh wow.

Tim · 50:51
Because I was saying something in Spanish that she heard, so the vibe she knows about what it means to be gay sounds like this.

Reggie · 50:59
Well, give us a little—

Mary · 51:00
let's demonstrate.

Reggie · 51:00
Yeah, let's hear, let's hear some of it.

Mary · 51:02
I would like to hear some.

Reggie · 51:03
You got us all now. Everybody's into Spanish.

Tim · 51:07
It's so hard now.

Reggie · 51:08
He's into us.

Mary · 51:09
Turned him red.

Tim · 51:12
I can't do it now. I was in a weird mood. 'Cause I was doing the anime one and I feel bad. I feel like I'm gonna get like canceled if I try and racially—

Reggie · 51:21
Tim, wait, wait, wait. Appropriate their language.

Mary · 51:22
Appropriate, appropriate it. You have to be successful to get canceled and nobody is watching.

Reggie · 51:28
I didn't— All 40 of our viewers are gonna cancel you.

Tim · 51:32
No one cares. I guess the point, I didn't wanna perform it, but the point was is that to her it has a sound.

Mary · 51:38
Yeah. Yeah.

Tim · 51:39
Gay, the idea of gay as a sound.

Mary · 51:42
Gay voice exists. As a linguist, gay voice exists.

Reggie · 51:45
Oh yeah, totally.

Tim · 51:45
Yeah, yeah, they've studied it. But does it, does it really? Like, is it something that all gay people have?

Reggie · 51:51
Nope.

Tim · 51:51
Or is it something that you signal with? Like, it's like a thing you over— like you overact it. Like I was saying in this class, I was overacting the Spanish accent, and that made it sound more like this, the language.

Reggie · 52:04
It's probably that you were in acting it out, you were being effeminate, and being effeminate has been associated with being gay. But it's not the— it's a stereotype.

Tim · 52:15
That's what I'm wondering, is it a stereotype?

Reggie · 52:17
It's a stereotype, 'cause I know a lot of gay people and not all of them sound that way. I do know some that are overly flamboyant and they do that, like that's part of their shtick.

Mary · 52:28
You're using words like— hang on.

Reggie · 52:30
Oh yeah, definitely fodder me up. Please.

Mary · 52:34
You're— no, no, I— you're using— this is like when Tim talks about being successful and I'm like, all right, what do you mean by successful? Like, because I think everybody's allowed to have their own metric for that. You use words like flamboyant or effeminate, and those are— there's a lot of connotation that go into it. But we're speaking specifically about a man's tone of voice that he uses. There's like the vocabulary, which especially in gay men's circles, there have been coded words for decades.

Reggie · 53:03
Oh, for decades?

Mary · 53:04
Yes, like going way back. There used to be like— there's all kinds of signaling historically with like which ear is pierced, which pocket.

Reggie · 53:12
Oh, is that for real?

Tim · 53:13
I thought that was something I was just told.

Mary · 53:14
Well, I think it ages out pretty quickly because by the time you cisgendered men have figured it out, it's passé. Like, yeah, but there are— there's like vocabulary and So bi. There are words that don't mean what you think they mean sometimes. And there's, you know, it's always constantly shifting, but there is like an epicenter of gay culture, I think. And there are icons who live in that space and are tastemakers and are setting tone. But the other thing that comes to mind as a linguist is the concept of prosody. Have you heard of this before?

Reggie · 53:46
No.

Mary · 53:46
The way that I remember what prosody is, is that when When women, when everybody talks to babies, but when women in particular talk to babies, we tend to make our voices go way up high and way down low. And this actually has a mechanism in helping children learn language. That's our hypothesis anyway. And that by giving more dynamic to the words, you're helping them hear highs and lows, understand the differences between words, and like get a full spectrum.

Reggie · 54:14
Is it the emotional or is it just for Or purely about the language?

Mary · 54:17
Well, women tend, at least in English, I don't know that it's true for all languages, but I believe it is the case that women tend to have more dynamic range in our voices anyway. Like, we tend to hit higher highs and lower lows than men at all.

Reggie · 54:29
I can see that.

Mary · 54:30
And I think it's because to be a man, you're kind of repressed.

Reggie · 54:34
Yeah, you're in this little, very small zone.

Mary · 54:37
You can't express beyond this dynamic range. So I'll bet what was happening is your daughter was, I almost said her name, your daughter was hearing you express a broader range, which we know you have capacity for. capacity for it because you're an artist and you've been there.

Reggie · 54:48
Yeah, you're going outside of your—

Mary · 54:49
And she's like, whoa, that's like outside of my standardized range for what a straight man sounds like, especially in English. And not to mention Latin languages tend to be more impassioned.

Reggie · 54:58
It's interesting.

Tim · 54:59
That's what I was— I was just thinking about that. I was wondering if white culture is so monotone.

Mary · 55:05
Oh, we're so bland.

Tim · 55:06
And when you get to other more culturally rich—

Mary · 55:10
Expressive.

Tim · 55:10
Yeah, expressive. And there's like there's dynamic aspects to their language and their, their, their, the way they dress and the way they communicate or hang out together. Like the energy.

Hannah · 55:21
Well, and the comfort with high emotion.

Mary · 55:23
Yeah.

Hannah · 55:23
Like I lived in Italy for a little while and just like, it's totally chill to be like—

Tim · 55:29
Strong and out there. Yeah.

Hannah · 55:31
And like, in fact, they talk about, you know, it's like, it's really negative.

Reggie · 55:35
Italian, maybe.

Hannah · 55:36
Not emotional enough.

Tim · 55:37
Like reserved. Yeah.

Hannah · 55:38
Right.

Reggie · 55:38
Kind of like, they like say Italian people can be fiery, but it's just expressive. It's not—

Tim · 55:45
So then here's the real question then for you. If you are— because I do maybe feel myself kind of repressed into this monotone range— if I were to change that, would I be signaling as gay?

Hannah · 55:59
I don't know. Try it.

Tim · 56:01
So like, that's the weird part is like, where do you explore?

Reggie · 56:05
You can explore wherever the hell you want.

Hannah · 56:07
In your little unit who knows you super well, maybe, but to the wider culture, no. Like, it depends which forum you're in.

Tim · 56:15
I think so, yeah, because your, your language— the ones who are closest to you probably understand your language more than anyone else around you because they understand the deeper meaning behind all the words you're saying.

Hannah · 56:26
Like, some— my daughter wouldn't know your normal range, and she might not She would not perceive that at all.

Tim · 56:31
But would she perceive my non-normal range as gay?

Mary · 56:35
I'm wondering, my hypothesis—

Reggie · 56:38
We haven't heard it yet, so we don't know.

Mary · 56:39
Yeah, I can't wait. We're gonna demo it after.

Reggie · 56:41
You gotta bring it up.

Tim · 56:43
I don't want anyone to think I'm making fun of them. That's the thing is that—

Mary · 56:45
That's fair, yeah. And let's just go on record and say we're forcing Tim to do this and he would never ever do this.

Hannah · 56:52
He tried not to. You know what, I'll bet—

Mary · 56:57
I don't know if— I don't know what dynamic range looks or sounds like for you, so there is a chance that you might be just trying to emulate another voice that you've heard, and it might be a caricature or an appropriation. That's what I'm worried about. But if you're just expanding your range to hit higher highs and lower lows and new and interesting sounds that people don't play with that often, which is totally normal in my household, we sound really crazy at home. We're theater artists. So, but I think you would probably just sound quirky to begin with. You'd be like a little wacky, be like, oh, that dude's a little weird. But some people are really into that.

Reggie · 57:31
Emotionally, like, so I had a relationship, bad one, and this particular woman, anytime we would be in a heated like conversation, or I'd say, flat out say argument, my voice would like get higher pitch. Not like I was yelling, but it was like your— when you're—

Mary · 57:52
Emotion.

Reggie · 57:52
Yeah, when you're emotionally invested and you're trying to get a point out, your voice goes up and you're like, look, you know, and that would annoy her. And it was the most difficult thing to try to bring it back and try to like talk in this very monotone voice. It's like, I don't talk like that because right now I'm emotionally aroused, and so my voice isn't gonna stay the same. It was the weirdest thing to try to help this person understand that this is what happens when people— when they're— so I think—

Mary · 58:20
Hmm.

Reggie · 58:20
I think they're— that's why I asked, was it emotional when you were saying that women talk highs and lows when they talk to babies? Is it attached to an emotion? Are they— is it— or is it just that they are subconsciously trying— is this something that's sort of baked in and ingrained that they go, Through their highs and lows. They have a broader dynamic range.

Tim · 58:41
I think the emotion's always there. Can you say an emotion's not there with a baby?

Mary · 58:44
Who am I to say? But I know that it is a consistent thing that happens untrained. Like, it's not just nurture. Like, we hear other people talk to kids like that. That is how women, mothers talk to their children, tends to be in this sort of sing-songy voice. But I don't know, like, if your child is crying, I feel like most people don't go, Hey, no, stop crying. You know, you're dropping into a more vulnerable—

Reggie · 59:09
Like you drop into trying to lull them to safety.

Mary · 59:11
It's a very safe, like, let me co-regulate you into believing that you are safe, how can I? And I think your voice shifts when you're in that.

Reggie · 59:18
It does, I totally agree.

Tim · 59:20
So my son has 2 friends out of his small friend group that are transgender. What is the sexual orientation conversation after the change?

Hannah · 59:30
Mm.

Tim · 59:31
Like, he, he kind of—

Mary · 59:32
Well, let's call on our transgender representative.

Tim · 59:34
For real, like, well, here's the thing. Well, you— I mean, we're all— we come from different backgrounds, perspectives. It's— I find it interesting that he's had 2 friends out of a very small friend group, like less than 20, 15. I mean, his close friend group is like 10, and 2 of them— and one of them, his sister, turned into a boy and he turned into a girl. So they flipped.

Mary · 1:00:00
So just so I'm clear, your son's friends are transmasculine or transfeminine?

Tim · 1:00:06
They trans— both. They turned into girls. They're now women. Right, they're now women.

Reggie · 1:00:11
Wait, they both turned into women?

Tim · 1:00:12
No, his— both of his friends turned into women. Yeah. And his— one of his friend's sisters turned into—

Reggie · 1:00:19
Oh, gotcha.

Mary · 1:00:20
Male.

Hannah · 1:00:20
They would say they always were.

Mary · 1:00:22
Yeah, right.

Tim · 1:00:23
Okay, so advocate, right, right, right. So then if they— if the one that turns woman, if she likes men, is she considered gay? Or if she likes women, is she considered straight? So how does it— does it— is that world after they—

Reggie · 1:00:42
after they go through a transition, so to speak?

Hannah · 1:00:45
I think they're straight.

Tim · 1:00:46
I mean, I think We're getting code. So that's what I'm saying, like, the gender thing is one first difference in our culture, like something that we don't, um, hold as like a straight— no, it's something that we say should be this way, so it's already outside of what we say is the way it should be.

Mary · 1:01:01
I think it's subversion in a way.

Tim · 1:01:03
Right, it's subversion, the first degree.

Hannah · 1:01:05
If you don't have gender, you don't have sexual orientation.

Tim · 1:01:08
So you're, you're beyond sexual orientation.

Hannah · 1:01:10
Well, just sexual orientation Orientation is almost predicated on an idea of there being gender difference. I believe there is gender difference and people can exist wherever they want in there.

Reggie · 1:01:23
In the spectrum of it.

Hannah · 1:01:24
But if you didn't have gender, what's there to orient against?

Reggie · 1:01:31
That's funny. They used to say autism, but more and more they're using the term neurodiverse. neurodivergent or on the spectrum. What if sexual orientation and gender and all those things were just a spectrum and you just were wherever you fell on the spectrum?

Mary · 1:01:49
Well, the reality is, if you accept that metaphor, and I do, I do, we are all on the spectrum.

Reggie · 1:01:54
We're all on the spectrum. That's the point. Yeah, I love that. I think that— I feel like— I think maybe they did that with the term autism because it became, you know, it felt too much like labeling. But when you say on the spectrum, it's like we all are on a spectrum.

Mary · 1:02:12
And accepting that there are varying degrees.

Reggie · 1:02:14
Yeah, there are varying degrees of something.

Mary · 1:02:16
Versus the traditional one.

Reggie · 1:02:17
And so of sexuality, if you accept that there are varying degrees of it, it becomes less of a— I guess my— I keep going back to like wanting this to not be like a thing. I know.

Tim · 1:02:26
But does that mean you're uncomfortable with it being an issue?

Reggie · 1:02:28
I'm uncomfortable with other people being uncomfortable not being able to be who they are. because it's such an issue. And that's the thing that I wish if we put it on a spectrum, then it's like we are all as a civilization on this spectrum and we're just in different parts of it.

Hannah · 1:02:45
Yeah.

Tim · 1:02:46
My son doesn't find any oddity in it, or at least that he will talk to me about. And he doesn't really sound like he even seeks to know much about it.

Reggie · 1:02:56
Because they're growing up in a world where trans kids are—

Tim · 1:03:00
I think it's us trying to know it that makes it strange. We're trying to understand it and like, tell me the details of it. They're like, it's fine. I was like, well, does it make you feel any different or is it interesting hanging out with them? No, Dad, it's just— and I'm like, wow, it's such a different perspective than I felt like I had to know in order to relate.

Hannah · 1:03:22
I love this. I feel like the generational difference really plays in here. I have a million examples, like a friend who lives near my parents' summer place. When I met this person, the gender pronoun I would use was she. She, at that time, used that and presented as queer and very butch.

Tim · 1:03:47
Mm-hmm.

Hannah · 1:03:48
But I think this person who is now— who is he, who is trans, But like, at that time, 20 years ago, what was available to them was that.

Tim · 1:04:00
Right.

Hannah · 1:04:01
That's all they had. Yeah, that was what they had available.

Reggie · 1:04:03
Absolutely. Right.

Hannah · 1:04:04
And now, and now they've, you know, I think they knew who they were the whole time.

Tim · 1:04:11
Right.

Hannah · 1:04:11
I don't think they actually changed. I think what the culture accepted and allowed for them changed.

Reggie · 1:04:17
Yeah.

Hannah · 1:04:18
And so now they present as a straight as a man married to a woman. And so actually, the funny— the hilarious thing is they're trying to be more like you, Tim. Like, boring. And I think that's the aspiration.

Reggie · 1:04:31
Right, right.

Mary · 1:04:31
And it's actually— let me just be. In many of those cases, because I've known some people this way as well, and what's actually more interesting to me than that person coming out and living into their transmasculine life, because I'm of the same belief, I'm like, You knew, it's just that you didn't feel safe, or you didn't feel like you would have opportunity in the way that everybody else did. So that's— talk about the hierarchy of needs. Like, if we can just get everybody to a baseline, you won't be killed for being who you are, I think a lot of this will get sorted out.

Hannah · 1:05:02
Sure.

Mary · 1:05:02
But, but what's a fascinating topic to me is that partner who came into what was a lesbian relationship to begin with, presumably because they were attracted to a certain type of woman, by whatever definition, is now in a relationship with a man. And I, I'm of the opinion that if you knew them to begin with, you knew them all along. And I'm the type of person that I don't think it really, really matters for me. But I know there are a lot of people who still have some hangups with that, and I'm always fascinated by that.

Hannah · 1:05:38
This would really depend on what you're attracted to. Like, Yeah, I hope, I deeply hope that person was in love with the person. Yeah. And that was the attraction. But you know that there are— if you identify— I mean, I, I've identified as being in kind of the middle of the spectrum, so like, I think I'd be chill. Yeah. But you might not. You might be on an end and you're like, I need these body parts. Yeah. You know, I don't know.

Mary · 1:06:04
And how do we— and how does—

Tim · 1:06:05
It's all about what body parts you need, right?

Mary · 1:06:08
But what an interesting— can you imagine being in that dynamic? And like, how do you come to your partner and say, hey, I gotta make this transformation, like, I need to be my truest self? And there are all kinds of little ways that we watch people do this, like, oh, I need to quit my job and start a new career, or I really feel like I need to move to this place to pursue this opportunity. And I'm just always— it just warms my heart when I see a couple, one of whom is trans and the other of whom has just like held them and been with them through that whole journey. I'm like, this is the purest expression of love I've ever seen in my life. Yes, it's just beautiful.

Reggie · 1:06:46
I sadly— oh, you had a thought.

Hannah · 1:06:49
No, please.

Reggie · 1:06:49
I was gonna say, and it's probably not popular opinion.

Tim · 1:06:53
You could get canceled right now.

Reggie · 1:06:56
Maybe.

Mary · 1:06:57
With all 40 of our subscribers.

Reggie · 1:06:58
I feel like religion is at the root of a lot of these organized religions. It's at the root of a lot of these—

Tim · 1:07:06
You've opened it.

Reggie · 1:07:07
Yeah. I mean—

Mary · 1:07:08
Worms, they're crawling out.

Reggie · 1:07:10
Because think about it. I think a lot of our misunderstanding and maybe even some people's disdain for people exploring sexually comes from how they were raised in the church. A lot of— it was for me, and that's the thing I broke out of at an early age. thankfully. But it was, you know, like you couldn't even masturbate. Like there were just so many things that were so like frowned upon. I remember my dad catching me when I was like maybe 13 and I was, I was doing the thing. That's the most embarrassing moment ever. And it's that—

Mary · 1:07:46
Worst feeling. Your parents walking in on anything sexual.

Reggie · 1:07:50
Right. But I'm like doing my thing and my dad comes in and said, you're gonna go to hell for that.

Hannah · 1:07:56
Oh my God.

Reggie · 1:07:56
And it fucked with me for years because I thought every time I—

Mary · 1:08:01
Do you think your dad never masturbated?

Reggie · 1:08:03
I knew he did. That's the thing. That's the question. In my brain, I'm like, there's no way he didn't never. Yeah, exactly. And that's the hypocritical side of it. That's why I just—

Tim · 1:08:14
You probably used it at 13. You're like, this must not be my dad's problem. He's got this locked down.

Reggie · 1:08:17
I mean, maybe at 13 I probably did. I was like, oh my God, something's wrong with me because I wanted to touch myself. And so now all of a sudden— but oh my God, don't do that to your kids. I will say that it's like horrible.

Hannah · 1:08:29
Well, it gives a framework to, you know, be unkind to people.

Reggie · 1:08:36
Yeah.

Hannah · 1:08:36
Socially sanctioned way to be unkind to people.

Reggie · 1:08:38
Absolutely. Yes. It's like, oh, because I follow this Bible and these people tell me that this is the wrong thing, I'm going to stand behind it. And it's absolutely disgusting. I think, when I see people using religion to harass and hurt other people. And they're blatantly doing it now. I don't know if it's this current administration, but I've seen people just like somewhere in not long after the person that's in our White House was in our White House. The naughty name.

Mary · 1:09:11
Yeah.

Reggie · 1:09:12
Let's just keep his name out of our minds. There was a gay couple, 2 women were in a restaurant, and some white dude sitting next to them got so offended that they were holding hands, that he had the audacity to get up and berate them in the middle of this restaurant. And it was this post that I saw, it went viral, sort of Asheville viral, that these women couldn't feel comfortable comfortable in their, in their own town, in a restaurant without some—

Mary · 1:09:43
Sorry, it was here in Asheville?

Reggie · 1:09:44
It was in Asheville.

Mary · 1:09:45
This is like the lesbian capital of the East Coast. So he had a lot of nerve.

Reggie · 1:09:49
My guess is—

Mary · 1:09:49
Somebody had a multi-tool in their back pocket.

Reggie · 1:09:52
My guess is he wasn't from here and he came here on his vacation or whatever and sees these 2 women enjoying themselves and was emboldened to go and like try to We need to, when we're promoting the region, we might want to consider slipping in some subversive queer— Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Absolutely.

Mary · 1:10:14
Whatever.

Reggie · 1:10:14
Some signals.

Hannah · 1:10:15
Scan over all the Subarus.

Mary · 1:10:17
Yeah. Did you hear that Asheville's getting a lesbian bar? It's a sports bar. They're going to play Yes. Yes. Which is one of the few in the country. There's this big dialogue about lesbian bars and how there weren't that many to begin with, but they've been dying out in recent memory. So I'm excited they're on the map.

Hannah · 1:10:35
For those of us with daughters and who just enjoy women's sports, they're going to be a sports bar and play women's sports.

Tim · 1:10:43
I love that. No way.

Hannah · 1:10:44
Finally can see the WNBA, et cetera. I love that.

Mary · 1:10:48
I didn't know. Are they open yet? Have you heard?

Tim · 1:10:50
So how would you work with a lesbian bar brand?

Hannah · 1:10:52
Well—

Tim · 1:10:53
How would you signal? How would you make— is it open to straight opening right now.

Mary · 1:10:58
So I don't want to critique what they're doing.

Tim · 1:10:59
Well, that's an amazing—

Reggie · 1:11:01
I love this.

Hannah · 1:11:01
You should reach out and tag them in the comments.

Tim · 1:11:04
Yeah, yeah. I just think that's interesting because when— so when someone says this is the way we want, like if someone opened a straight bar, which they have all around.

Reggie · 1:11:14
If someone opened a straight bar.

Tim · 1:11:17
No, imagine someone branded a straight bar. It's like, what is having a straight bar say? No, not allowed, right?

Hannah · 1:11:26
This is like about whiteness being neutral.

Mary · 1:11:27
It's all lives matter.

Tim · 1:11:29
Yeah.

Hannah · 1:11:29
It's actually not neutral.

Reggie · 1:11:31
Overly masculine, boring.

Hannah · 1:11:32
You think of it just as a bar.

Reggie · 1:11:34
Yeah.

Hannah · 1:11:35
But it actually, you're right.

Tim · 1:11:36
But if you branded it as a straight bar, it says something different, right? So if you brand something as a— Oh, you mean if you actually overly went out of your way to say it's a bar. You just said a straight bar. So like, So if you have a lesbian bar, you're branding it as a lesbian bar. So what does that mean on its level of diversity?

Mary · 1:11:55
Let's get into it.

Tim · 1:11:57
Now we're here. It's an hour past. We've arrived.

Mary · 1:12:01
I could talk about this for another hour. Can I? This is another piece of information that you need to know about, you know, the branding of a lesbian bar. And there's a number of dynamics that we should talk about. But the name of the one that's opening here in Asheville is called Q Hall. Which I'm assuming doesn't mean anything to you because you don't get the joke, which is that lesbians emotionally move really fast. This is a stereotype. Move really fast in relationship because there's just intimacy that gets established really quickly.

Tim · 1:12:29
Instant intimacy.

Mary · 1:12:30
You hear about people who go on 3-day-long dates. Like, we went on our first date and we just kept hanging out, and then I slept over, and then we hung out all the next day. Just like there's this enmeshment that happens really, really quickly. And that may not be the case with everybody, but that's the prevailing stereotype. And so this lesbian bar is poking fun at the stereotype by saying U-Haul, because the word that we use to refer to that stereotype with lesbians is U-Haul. They're U-Hauling, like lesbians with a U-Haul moving in together so quickly. Hahaha. So it's like layers upon layers of like, you have to get this inside joke.

Reggie · 1:13:06
Yeah.

Mary · 1:13:07
Get this other thing.

Tim · 1:13:07
So then I guarantee a straight person's not gonna feel safe in that.

Hannah · 1:13:10
Safe?

Tim · 1:13:11
Not safe. Not safe. Not safe. Welcome. Welcome. Not safe.

Mary · 1:13:15
Some people probably. I don't know.

Tim · 1:13:16
You'll feel safe everywhere. I mean, I'm not gonna say that straight people have anything that they need to be worried about, but they are not gonna be welcome in— like, you don't wanna go into a place that there's an inside joke you don't get. You feel like this idiot. Yeah. I felt like the idiot commonly amongst diverse crowds. So there could be a reason in that vibe branding under these under— what's the right word for under-level communications? You're not getting it. And so you're the butt of the joke.

Mary · 1:13:44
Yeah.

Hannah · 1:13:45
Or there's a safety thing to like, do you know the secret password to this place that is safe for us? If you don't, you might be the guy who's going to berate us in the restaurant.

Reggie · 1:13:56
Yeah.

Tim · 1:13:57
So you're not welcome here. And this is what brand Standing is all about who's welcome and who's not. We create the boundaries, and this is where you shall not pass. I know the response to such a history as we have is to create the same thing on the opposite side of it. It's the polar reaction. That is what people want to do.

Mary · 1:14:19
There's this space here, I need an explosive.

Tim · 1:14:21
Right. You can't center a line because that's not going to have enough balance to weigh it into balance. It's going to be in the middle and it doesn't have an impact.

Mary · 1:14:29
Have you heard about this art project? And it's my favorite kind of art project that also serves as a social experiment. There's this woman in Australia— if it's New Zealand, I'm going to be really embarrassed, I'm so sorry— but she opened like a ladies club and it was only women allowed in this club. And it was sort of modeled after like the old men's clubs. Yeah. And it I think she put it somewhere very prominent and made it super cool. And some men got really up in arms about not being able to attend this club or not being allowed into this sacred space.

Hannah · 1:15:03
Oh, interesting.

Mary · 1:15:04
And it's like, well, doesn't feel good, does it? How interesting.

Tim · 1:15:09
Could transgender go there?

Mary · 1:15:11
I mean, I'm of the opinion— this is where it gets all politicized— I'm of the opinion that it's about how you identify and live your life. And in many ways, in women's circles, it's about the sort of oppression that you have to navigate as a woman. And can you sympathize and empathize with those things? So I would say any trans woman is welcome in my women's spaces. But yeah, I guess it's not a guarantee that everybody's going to believe that way.

Reggie · 1:15:35
But that's a really good point, though, is that they've been oppressed and they, they wouldn't— they haven't felt comfortable in these other spaces. So they got their own space. And now it's like, oh, but we want to come into your space.

Mary · 1:15:45
And that's a racial thing too.

Reggie · 1:15:46
Yeah, absolutely.

Mary · 1:15:47
Like, there are places where you walk in and if you're the only white person, you're going to be like, oh, I'm invading right now. Like, I'm— this is supposed to be a safe space and I've— maybe my presence here is—

Reggie · 1:15:59
I think of Sinners. Remember they got the little juke joint going and then the white people were the vampires?

Mary · 1:16:08
The bullies with their bats.

Reggie · 1:16:08
Yeah, coming in with their banjos coming in and they're like—

Mary · 1:16:11
Really sad.

Reggie · 1:16:12
Do you really want— I know.

Mary · 1:16:14
I felt really called out. Introspective. Yeah.

Hannah · 1:16:18
There's this whole thing with drag brunches here in Asheville, and I think in other cities as well, where they're starting to say like, hey, bachelorette parties, please, please, with all your straight marriage vibes, could you help us keep this space a queer space?

Mary · 1:16:35
Oh.

Hannah · 1:16:35
There's some drag brunches and stuff that are trying to do that.

Reggie · 1:16:40
Interesting.

Hannah · 1:16:40
Please don't.

Reggie · 1:16:41
Because it's become like a bachelorette hotspot.

Tim · 1:16:44
That's what I'm fascinated with because I don't know, because I've been straight my whole life. I don't know what that means.

Mary · 1:16:49
We're turning him.

Reggie · 1:16:50
Yeah, until this morning.

Tim · 1:16:52
Is it dangerous, the vibe? Or is it like, it's too straight, it doesn't feel good, the vibe? What is the difference in the drag vibe and the—

Hannah · 1:17:01
space for us to be us. And now we feel a little bit more like we're zoo animals rather than a club of members.

Reggie · 1:17:10
Yeah, it's like you're getting gawked at, you know?

Hannah · 1:17:13
Yeah, rather than—

Reggie · 1:17:13
People are there like it's a novelty. Like, oh, let's go to the such and such so we can— Yeah.

Hannah · 1:17:20
Being on display.

Reggie · 1:17:21
Yeah, that's exactly right.

Hannah · 1:17:23
Being there to, you know, as a performer of being gay or in drag.

Reggie · 1:17:28
100%. I totally see that.

Hannah · 1:17:30
Versus like being a part of and and celebrating that culture.

Tim · 1:17:33
So when—

Hannah · 1:17:33
You're literally, a bachelorette party is literally bringing a straight crew in to celebrate a straight event.

Reggie · 1:17:39
Yeah.

Hannah · 1:17:40
Right?

Tim · 1:17:40
Yeah.

Reggie · 1:17:40
Yeah.

Hannah · 1:17:40
It is.

Tim · 1:17:41
Unless you're getting married to someone—

Reggie · 1:17:42
To a gay woman. Which would be awesome, right?

Tim · 1:17:46
Because that would be a totally new understanding of it though.

Mary · 1:17:48
That would be different.

Reggie · 1:17:49
I would say yeah.

Tim · 1:17:50
I do find it interesting, you're talking about judgment. So like the outside judgment of the group. If you're in a white place, it's white.

Hannah · 1:17:58
No, it doesn't feel that way. I don't actually think the right word.

Mary · 1:18:01
It feels disrespectful to me.

Reggie · 1:18:02
Yeah. I think you put it correctly when you said it feels like you're on display, like it's a novelty. They're coming there not because they're celebrating queer culture. They're coming there because they want to—

Mary · 1:18:17
like, it's like a dance monkey dance.

Reggie · 1:18:20
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, totally.

Mary · 1:18:22
I'm above it and I'll come throw my money around for the little people. But look at how silly that drag queen is.

Reggie · 1:18:28
Yeah, it's like—

Mary · 1:18:29
This is like an icon of our culture, and this is embodying something. I don't know, there's a lineage here, there's a history. Like, it's an actual art form in many ways.

Tim · 1:18:37
Yeah, so it feels more normal in that situation? It's not a spectacle?

Mary · 1:18:41
I mean, there's spect— you're talking to a savage.

Tim · 1:18:44
I'm just saying what they're trying to aim— I'm trying to see what they're trying to aim for. Like, if you were gonna create the vibe of queer or drag culture, Is it just all the stereotypes? Like you just do the stereotype and you got it? Or is it like not having people around that make it feel like a spectacle?

Mary · 1:19:03
I think part of it is the freedom of expression thing. And I do think a lot of conformers come in and bring a very kind of repressed feeling to it or some other thing. But I think you were going somewhere with that.

Hannah · 1:19:16
Well, I think there's also a dilution quality. I think it's a ratio. I think if a couple people like that came in, that would be actually wonderful. Yeah.

Reggie · 1:19:27
Right?

Mary · 1:19:28
Especially if they all sat at different tables. If they all sat at different tables.

Tim · 1:19:31
Peppered around.

Hannah · 1:19:31
Yes, peppered in, right? 'Cause then they're there experiencing, bathing in that culture, taking it in, seeing it.

Reggie · 1:19:39
When I went to a drag show, it was with my gay friends. And so it was like I wasn't there.

Hannah · 1:19:44
You were peppered.

Reggie · 1:19:45
I didn't come with like a big crew of straight guys guys coming in there to watch. I was with my gay friends. And so, yeah, yeah, yeah, it changes the dynamic.

Hannah · 1:19:54
Yeah. And that dynamic is important.

Reggie · 1:19:56
Yeah, I think I agree.

Hannah · 1:19:57
For the performer's safety, but also just like literally a vibe. I mean, you are going for a vibe.

Reggie · 1:20:03
Yeah. And a bridesmaid's crew is like a bunch of straight women coming in with this straight energy, and it's not peppered around. It's this big concentrated.

Mary · 1:20:14
It's almost like defensive. And they take on a lot of—

Reggie · 1:20:18
and bright. I mean, have you ever seen a bridesmaid crew going through downtown? They are like—

Tim · 1:20:22
they're a lot. They're a lot. Estrogen on steroids.

Mary · 1:20:25
I just want to flip this. Yes, cool though. Yes, they're a problem. Bachelorette parties, we've seen a bunch of weird ones.

Tim · 1:20:32
But bachelor parties are worse. Really bad.

Reggie · 1:20:35
That's why I don't go to them. I don't go. That's a good point. I'm like, if you're If you're going to a strip club, count me out. There's no— I'm not. Yeah, I've not been to a bachelor party in decades, actually.

Tim · 1:20:47
I just find it really hard to find this line. I'm trying to figure out what is the right way to be or create space. And when I already have straight energy, am I an offensive presence? I mean, maybe I don't have straight energy.

Reggie · 1:21:05
I'm offended.

Tim · 1:21:06
Maybe I have like more middle ground.

Reggie · 1:21:07
I'm offended with how straight you are.

Tim · 1:21:09
I don't know.

Hannah · 1:21:10
I don't think it's fair to consider anybody's presence offensive.

Reggie · 1:21:14
No.

Hannah · 1:21:15
Straight up. Like, that isn't fair.

Tim · 1:21:17
No.

Hannah · 1:21:17
You are who you are. You can't change that.

Mary · 1:21:19
Right.

Hannah · 1:21:19
That has to be allowed. If you bring 12 straight dudes who are all like partying for the weekend to a thing, you're gonna bring an energy.

Reggie · 1:21:31
Oh yeah.

Tim · 1:21:32
Okay, I can see it.

Reggie · 1:21:33
Yeah. A masculine energy that's like— It's not an energy thing. Yeah. I think it's all about intention. I think being the straight guy in the room and walking into a space, if your intentions are to elevate that space in a positive way and not make anyone feel harassed or called out or gawked at or anything like that, then it's great. But if I think anyone going into a space with that energy where they're like, this clown show, you know, like that's, that's an energy that some straight dudes have, they bring in there. And, and unfortunately, I have to say, as a straight male, a lot of us aren't comfortable with things that are out outside of— and we talked about this a bit earlier— there's like a range of comfort. And if it's outside of that range because of your, you know, your social Cultural conditioning, whatever it is, you get into certain spaces and the discomfort is on display. Like, people can tell you're uncomfortable because you're in that space. But that can feel offensive.

Tim · 1:22:43
I would say though, how do you not feel uncomfortable if there's a whole line of jokes that you don't even get? If there's a whole culture you don't even understand and can't relate to, obviously you're gonna feel like you're an outsider.

Reggie · 1:22:53
You probably wouldn't go there though then. If you're that uncomfortable, you probably just wouldn't go there.

Tim · 1:22:58
This is the question I'm trying to ask then. Are there times where someone is not welcome and this whole like all are welcome is just a fake branded thing where all seriously aren't welcome? Maybe there's a white club, there's a black club, and there's a gay club, and there's a straight club, and there's a drag club. Like, that feels wrong. I mean, 'cause I've been—

Hannah · 1:23:17
I think learning and empathy and trying new things—

Reggie · 1:23:20
Compassion and empathy are key.

Hannah · 1:23:21
is important, including speaking new languages. And like, you know, I, I have trouble with this kind of what your kids were getting at with this, you speaking another language thing where, you know, this like appropriation stuff. Some of that like policing on that border, I find a little yucky because I feel like I really want to learn about new cultures.

Mary · 1:23:40
Yeah.

Hannah · 1:23:40
I think that is a positive thing. Now I understand there's like respect things to be mindful of for sure, and don't take it on and sell it. Like, it's mine. But am I allowed to learn Japanese? Am I allowed to get super, super into anime and Japanese food and culture? I hope so. Same with you learning about drag. You can go in and not get the jokes. And I think that that has to be okay. It has to be allowed. At least that's fair.

Reggie · 1:24:08
Absolutely. Yeah. I think that's what it is. I think, Tim, in your scenario, if you were to— let's say some of our gay friends or were like, hey, let's go check out this drag show, and you and I were like, all right, let's do it. You would go there and maybe you wouldn't get some of the jokes because they might be over the top of your head, but the overall vibe is that this is joy, laughter, fun. They're not—

Tim · 1:24:29
I get into that.

Reggie · 1:24:29
Yeah, they're, they're, they're not, they're not there intentionally throwing everything over your head so you don't get it. Like, if you look at it that way, then it's like, yeah, no, they're doing their thing. They're doing what they do, and some of it you're going to get and find funny, and some, some of the references and cues may go over your head. But even in that, it's still the energy that they're bringing. They're having fun, they're being playful, they're being, you know, saucy. Whatever it is, it's, it's an experience. And I don't think you would ever go there and be like, they're laughing at me, they're, you know, I'm not getting it. I don't think it would be like that. Regardless, Yeah, you're in. There you go.

Mary · 1:25:16
And I— but I just, even if those things are happening, I just want to ask us to reconsider the narrative around I'm not welcome here, right? Because I don't think anybody, with the exception of some people who've been doing it for a very long time, I don't think anybody's developing, creating these communities and these spaces to say, well, certain people aren't welcome here except people who are hateful and unkind. And, you know, and if you're not bringing—

Reggie · 1:25:41
And need to be paid out at all costs anywhere.

Mary · 1:25:43
Whereas if I try to get into the old boys club, that's a different thing.

Hannah · 1:25:48
Right.

Reggie · 1:25:48
Well, think about all the country clubs that I was never able to go to.

Mary · 1:25:52
Yeah.

Reggie · 1:25:52
You know, so why the hell do I want to go to them now?

Mary · 1:25:55
I think that these like subcultures need to exist in the way that like the label needs to exist for us to be to describe it and define it and move past it. Yeah, I think that's where we're at with these niches and these subcultures, and people need a place to feel safe. And speaking for queer culture, at least, we need a place where we feel safe and can feel joy and—

Reggie · 1:26:16
And welcome.

Mary · 1:26:17
Yeah, and just like be our full selves instead of the maybe flattened-down version that you feel like you have to be day to day to be acceptable.

Hannah · 1:26:25
Less performative.

Mary · 1:26:26
Yeah, or more performative as the case Right. But, but, but, you know, like in a— in, yeah, in a celebration of life kind of way. So I just don't want you to walk away from this in a headspace of, well, if I'm this straight white guy, I'm not allowed to go certain places because I'm gonna— my mere presence ruins the room. It's like, no, no. In fact, I think you have a really incredible opportunity ahead of you to like be for lack of a better word, an ambassador and say, ah, yeah, I look and sound and feel like these things, and yet I can move with love and I can give people grace and I can be the butt of the joke.

Reggie · 1:27:06
And you do that.

Mary · 1:27:07
And not take myself so seriously about it.

Reggie · 1:27:10
You are the kind of guy that brings light into a room. You're not a bigoted, horrible person.

Tim · 1:27:17
I think that's what I find annoying about my color and my straightness is that people assume I'm closed off and I'm one of the most open people you'll see in your life. Well, you do. You bring— Like, I like all the things.

Reggie · 1:27:28
That's what I'm saying. You bring that light into a room and the right people see it.

Mary · 1:27:33
Let's go get a septum piercing and some tattoos and then it'll be fine. You know what I'm saying? Like, you're just— we could signal. Like, we really want to.

Hannah · 1:27:40
We can signal.

Reggie · 1:27:40
Did you say a rectum piercing and a tattoo?

Mary · 1:27:41
I'm scared.

Reggie · 1:27:42
Oh, thank goodness.

Mary · 1:27:44
What did you think I said?

Tim · 1:27:45
This has been an incredible episode and uncomfortable and so interesting and fascinating to me.

Reggie · 1:27:52
And, and I have loved this episode.

Hannah · 1:27:54
Thank you.

Mary · 1:27:54
I thought it was you, Hannah.

Tim · 1:27:56
Yeah, Hannah, thank you for being here and for sharing all of your experiences.

Mary · 1:28:00
Can you imagine? And I'm so sorry, Craig, if you're listening to this. I want you to know I love you a lot and we would have had a great time, but doing this episode with Craig McAnsh would have been That's what I'm saying.

Reggie · 1:28:13
That would have been hilarious.

Tim · 1:28:14
Yeah, yeah.

Reggie · 1:28:15
The trash can knows. Yeah, the trash can knows.

Tim · 1:28:17
If you stayed here long enough, you know the trash can knows.

Reggie · 1:28:19
It's magic. It knows exactly who's going to be good.

Tim · 1:28:22
This is what we were meant to talk about. And I really enjoyed the conversation. And I appreciate you all, you being here and giving your time. And you out there, if you stayed until now and stayed until now, whatever you're avoiding. This was deep, and I appreciate you being here and taking your time to be here with us.

Reggie · 1:28:41
And I know who— one of my friends is gonna really love this episode, and it's Sarah Benoit, who we're hoping to get on the show at some point.

Tim · 1:28:49
We love Sarah. Shout out to Sarah Benoit.

Reggie · 1:28:50
She listens, and I know she's gonna love this episode, so I want to give her a little shout out.

Mary · 1:28:55
Sarah, you are a celebrity.

Tim · 1:28:56
So I would say to all other white men out there, be more open. Like, don't let your white keep you monotone. Yeah. And just like open in love. Like, what did Reggie say? Like, love yourself and love people.

Mary · 1:29:11
The world just needs to get over itself.

Hannah · 1:29:12
The world needs to get over itself.

Tim · 1:29:13
The world just needs to get over itself. Am I insane?

Hannah · 1:29:16
I also feel like there's something unbelievably positive we've touched on here. There's so much negativity in our culture right now, so much like, oh, the world is going to hell, it's all horrible. But what we've been talking about is how How the layers of bullshit have been peeling back with each generation, and our kids are teaching us to be better.

Tim · 1:29:37
Yeah, we're seeing it.

Reggie · 1:29:38
How awesome.

Tim · 1:29:39
That is proof, I think, that it's getting better.

Reggie · 1:29:42
100%.

Tim · 1:29:42
That's a hopeful way to go.

Reggie · 1:29:43
Yeah.

Tim · 1:29:44
Thank you.

Reggie · 1:29:44
I love that.

Tim · 1:29:45
Thank you. We'll be back next week.

Reggie · 1:29:47
Yeah, thanks guys. See ya.

Mary · 1:29:49
Bye. Wow.

Tim · 1:29:52
Will was dying to get into this one. He's like, oh my God, let me over there.