Idols, Brands & The Originality We Worship

Reggie · 1:07
It feels more natural. Yeah, it feels more natural.

Tim · 1:09
You're actually having wireless interference already?

Reggie · 1:17
Oh, that's why we've been doing— yeah, it's to make sure it doesn't interfere.

Tim · 1:24
3 weeks ago we had the mic—

Reggie · 1:26
Clickety-clack us in.

Tim · 1:27
Failed 3 times during the episode.

Reggie · 1:33
Hey guys, we see you out there. Hey, thanks for being here. This is AGE. If you have been watching for a while, you know that I am Reggie Tidwell. This is Mary Greene. That is Tim Scroggs. And today we have a lovely guest, Linsey Gray. And Linsey Gray is a friend who's an amazing painter. I'll let her say just a little bit about, like, what are you— what, what's going on? What are you crazy about? Tim likes to say, like, what's What's the phrase? Yeah, what are you obsessed with right now?

Linsey · 2:05
Current obsession?

Mary · 2:06
Yeah.

Linsey · 2:06
Oh, oh, I think getting enough sleep.

Tim · 2:11
Oh, I love it. I gotta find that one.

Reggie · 2:15
It's underrated, right?

Linsey · 2:16
Underrated.

Reggie · 2:17
Oh my gosh.

Linsey · 2:17
And it's affecting my ability to create more and more, right?

Reggie · 2:21
I have been getting to bed earlier and earlier. I've been valuing my sleep and it's been paying off.

Tim · 2:28
But I feel so old when I go to bed early.

Reggie · 2:30
I mean, I do too, but man, I've been reading—

Linsey · 2:34
You gotta detach from that.

Tim · 2:35
I do. I gotta detach from this old thing.

Reggie · 2:38
If you have a good book, which I do right now, I'm reading I Have Some Questions for You. Really good book. Gosh, I forget the author's name, but I am like in it now. So I'm like, I wanna go to bed early so I can read a chapter before I fall asleep.

Tim · 2:52
So you can actually get through a chapter?

Reggie · 2:53
Yeah.

Tim · 2:54
I'm like one page.

Reggie · 2:55
Yeah, I used to be, but it's, I'm, I've been— I'm getting it up so I can do like a chapter a night.

Linsey · 3:00
All right.

Reggie · 3:01
I've, I've read a hell of a book by Jason Mott, and it took me like 2 years because I would do like a page a night.

Tim · 3:12
Paragraph a night.

Reggie · 3:13
Sometimes it was like a paragraph. I only got it in me and I'll just fall asleep. But yeah, anyway, we are aged. We like to have long, gripping conversations about a topic that we pull from this very trash can right here, which without further ado, I'm going to go ahead and get to.

Mary · 3:36
While you're pulling, can I just say that another friend of ours came in yesterday and was having some, you know, brainstorm time with me. Tim was here, and he, without asking, walked up with a rolled up and wadded up Post-it note and put another piece of trash. Fun.

Reggie · 3:53
So he's like, there's a trash can right there. We have to cover it up. We need to— I'll cut a perfect little thing that goes over it that we can take off.

Mary · 4:01
Like a little drape.

Reggie · 4:01
This is not a trash can.

Tim · 4:06
This is a perfect UX fail.

Reggie · 4:09
Yeah, it really is.

Tim · 4:10
A trash can that's not a trash can.

Reggie · 4:11
That's a perfect UX fail.

Linsey · 4:13
Perfectly balled up.

Reggie · 4:13
Yeah, I know. It's like, oh, that looks like trash.

Tim · 4:16
That's a cohesive trash.

Mary · 4:18
Yeah. And it's so low, it's not so full.

Tim · 4:20
So you're like, oh, somebody changed the stage.

Mary · 4:21
This is going to be an interesting Is it sleep?

Reggie · 4:24
No, it's not. It would be cool if it was sleep.

Mary · 4:27
I don't even know if sleep is in there. We should put it in there.

Tim · 4:29
The trash can's kind of got magic powers.

Reggie · 4:31
Floaty. I don't know what that means.

Tim · 4:33
Usually has something that's relevant to someone in the group.

Reggie · 4:36
All right. Idols. Oh, idols.

Linsey · 4:42
Hmm.

Mary · 4:43
How much time do we have?

Tim · 4:45
Oh, man.

Reggie · 4:47
What's the first thing that comes to mind?

Tim · 4:48
American Idol, because I hated it.

Reggie · 4:50
Me too.

Mary · 4:50
I hated it literally from the first one. Really?

Tim · 4:54
It was so horrible. Yeah. And all of my friends and family loved it. I'm like, what is happening to the world?

Reggie · 4:59
I love like a season or two.

Linsey · 5:01
I liked the first season.

Reggie · 5:02
Yeah.

Tim · 5:03
I mean, I guess there's something to be liked because you had Justin and I can't remember his last name. And then Kelly Clarkson.

Reggie · 5:08
Kelly Clarkson.

Tim · 5:10
Was she first?

Reggie · 5:10
And then, oh, what is her name?

Tim · 5:13
There were like 3 people out of that one.

Linsey · 5:16
Yeah.

Tim · 5:17
Yeah. Was it the country?

Reggie · 5:18
Was the country one? But so a lot of these people have become They've become famous.

Tim · 5:23
That's the— I don't know. I'm not going to get into it. I'm going to harp on it, but I don't want to. I'm going to let everyone get their—

Mary · 5:27
Name your most memorable American Idol. Anybody got one?

Tim · 5:30
Mine was Kelly Clarkson.

Linsey · 5:31
I think just Kelly Clarkson because that's the only one I paid attention to.

Mary · 5:34
Where are the David Archuleta stans? That's all I'm trying to say.

Linsey · 5:38
No.

Mary · 5:38
Okay, move on.

Tim · 5:39
Actually, Benson Boone was in American Idol.

Linsey · 5:41
No way.

Reggie · 5:41
Was he?

Mary · 5:42
I didn't know this.

Reggie · 5:42
I didn't know that.

Tim · 5:43
I think that he's the one that went through 3 rounds and then he dropped out himself so he could record his album.

Mary · 5:49
Do you think he did any—

Reggie · 5:50
Wow.

Linsey · 5:50
May not have needed it.

Reggie · 5:51
I was going to say, yeah, he's like, I'm better than this.

Tim · 5:53
Well, he's the one, I think— if I got this wrong, I'll look it up and have Will edit it. But there's one guy that comes into the American Idol tryouts and he's like, I've only been playing piano for a few months. And he sits down and just like rocks the place.

Reggie · 6:09
Wow.

Linsey · 6:09
Awesome.

Reggie · 6:10
And I'm like, what the hell?

Tim · 6:11
That's not true. How can that be true? No one plays the piano and just starts singing 3 months in and sounds like him.

Reggie · 6:16
No way.

Tim · 6:17
I don't know. I have my suspicions that it was like some kind of a plant or—

Reggie · 6:23
I like the series with Caleb. I forget his last name, but he was from Asheville.

Tim · 6:28
Oh yeah.

Reggie · 6:29
Caleb.

Tim · 6:30
I can't remember his last name either.

Reggie · 6:31
He was more like kind of rockabilly, not full country, kind of like Wilco vibe. He was awesome though.

Tim · 6:39
This is my—

Reggie · 6:39
I met him. I met him. Caleb.

Mary · 6:41
Guys, we got to do better.

Tim · 6:42
No, but this is not us. This is American Idol's failure. They say they're going to make these stars and artists. And they go through and grind through this thing and then you forget about them.

Reggie · 6:51
Yeah.

Tim · 6:52
You remember the ones that didn't even win.

Linsey · 6:54
Right.

Reggie · 6:55
First thing that comes to mind for me is all the, like, idols our kids have, like all these, like, YouTube influencers and they're like looking up to like Mr. Big, Mr.—

Linsey · 7:05
MrBeast.

Reggie · 7:06
MrBeast. Mr. Big.

Tim · 7:07
I'm feeling like that's from Sex and the City.

Linsey · 7:10
Mr. Big.

Tim · 7:11
We just dated ourselves.

Reggie · 7:13
Chris Noth.

Tim · 7:14
Yeah, he was amazing.

Reggie · 7:16
Chris Noth. Was he our idol back then?

Mary · 7:18
He's way cooler than MrBeast.

Reggie · 7:18
I think so. This is too big. Yeah.

Mary · 7:22
Like K-pop idols.

Reggie · 7:24
I know.

Mary · 7:24
I forgot that.

Reggie · 7:25
K-pop Demon Hunters. My kid was watching, one of my twins was watching K-pop Demon Hunters again yesterday, and I was like, I know that song. And I was like, oh, I know what that is.

Tim · 7:34
My son thought it was an incredible movie.

Reggie · 7:36
I thought it was fun.

Linsey · 7:37
My daughter's just 5, so she's like still a little—

Reggie · 7:41
Too young.

Linsey · 7:42
Trying to keep the overstimulants down a little bit.

Tim · 7:45
Yeah, that's hard in this world.

Reggie · 7:46
That's a good call.

Tim · 7:47
Yeah.

Reggie · 7:47
That is a very stimulating movie.

Tim · 7:49
I was getting on top of the back of the couch I know somehow my son has seen it already and he was like, yeah, Dad, you remember the girl who they start showing her tattoos to prove that she's a demon? I was like, what did you watch?

Reggie · 8:04
What's happening? Nothing.

Tim · 8:06
Will's walking around and making me—

Mary · 8:08
I changed seating and I didn't rearrange myself.

Tim · 8:09
Okay. Rearrange yourself, Mary.

Mary · 8:11
I needed to check myself before I—

Reggie · 8:13
I love how Will did it very discreetly and I was like, what's wrong? What's going on? And Reggie's like, what's happening?

Mary · 8:18
Reggie has no chill. You try to do something subtle and Reggie's gonna be like, what's happening?

Tim · 8:23
Tell me straight, guys. Tell me straight.

Reggie · 8:26
And then Tim got involved. It's like, what's going on?

Tim · 8:29
Invite him, get to see him. All right, fine.

Mary · 8:31
Sorry. Will, you did a great job.

Reggie · 8:32
Will did exactly the way he was supposed to.

Mary · 8:36
What comes to mind when you hear the word idols?

Linsey · 8:38
I, I think back to what my kid is currently looking up to right now, which is Moana, like any other toddler, early elementary, which is— I'm okay with.

Reggie · 8:48
I was gonna say, that's a pretty good call.

Linsey · 8:49
Because her immediate, you know, kind of reasoning, like her, you know, a grandparent or somebody will come up and say, oh, she's, you know, referring to Moana as a princess, and she'll quickly correct, she's not a princess.

Reggie · 9:01
Chief. Yes.

Mary · 9:03
Oh yeah.

Reggie · 9:04
I love that.

Linsey · 9:05
She doesn't need no Prince Charming.

Reggie · 9:06
Yeah, I love that.

Linsey · 9:07
So I'm okay with that.

Reggie · 9:09
And like kindness, love of nature, like Moana stands for all these great things, helping others. So that's not a bad idol to have.

Tim · 9:16
And how can you see that last scene Where she says, let her come to me.

Reggie · 9:20
Wait, is this the new one?

Tim · 9:22
No, the original cartoon. Oh, the original one. Have you seen it?

Reggie · 9:25
Oh, yes, yes, yes. I do remember.

Tim · 9:27
You break down crying when she— when the lava monster comes to her. Yeah. Oh my goodness.

Reggie · 9:31
Graffiti?

Linsey · 9:33
Graffiti? I still cry every time.

Mary · 9:34
What was her name?

Tim · 9:34
I do.

Reggie · 9:35
It was Graffiti.

Mary · 9:36
Graffiti.

Linsey · 9:37
Graffiti.

Mary · 9:38
Graffiti.

Linsey · 9:38
Graffiti. Graffiti.

Reggie · 9:40
I know it's Graffiti. I always want to say Rafiki, but that's the monkey in Lion King, right?

Tim · 9:45
Yeah, that's not—

Reggie · 9:46
Yeah, it's something like that though.

Linsey · 9:48
Yeah, it's Te Fiti.

Reggie · 9:48
Te Fiti.

Tim · 9:49
Because it reminds me of Tahiti.

Linsey · 9:50
We watch it about twice a day, so it's Te Fiti.

Tim · 9:53
You got it. Maybe you should sing it.

Linsey · 9:56
Unless I'm saying it wrong, but yeah.

Tim · 9:58
Are you going to show her the live action when it comes out?

Linsey · 10:00
We saw it already. You saw it?

Reggie · 10:01
Wow.

Tim · 10:01
What'd you think of it?

Reggie · 10:02
Was it good? It was great. Yeah? Really? You went to the movies to see it? Wow. That's like full-on stimulation. Was that her first movie?

Linsey · 10:11
No, she had her first movie for her birthday last year, which was the live-action Lilo and Stitch, which that also was very good.

Reggie · 10:19
Oh, nice. Love it. I didn't know they did a live-action Lilo and Stitch.

Linsey · 10:22
They did a great job.

Reggie · 10:23
What is her—

Tim · 10:24
So her idol is a chief, a woman chief. How cool is that? What a new world.

Reggie · 10:28
I love that.

Tim · 10:30
It's not a typical person.

Mary · 10:31
I'll take it.

Reggie · 10:32
How about you?

Mary · 10:34
Oh, this— Queen Mary.

Tim · 10:35
Queen Mary.

Mary · 10:36
Thank you.

Tim · 10:36
Just let it out, Mary. Let it all out.

Mary · 10:38
When we were starting the episode, my hand was here. That's what I thought about is like kings and queens would I love this, as people like approach the throne.

Reggie · 10:45
Oh, that's right.

Mary · 10:46
I love that. I get like way too deep on idolatry. I started reading this book called We Are Gods.

Linsey · 10:53
Ooh. You are gods?

Mary · 10:56
We Are Gods. And it's just the thing that comes to me is like we have turned a lot of things into idols, so to speak. And so much so that we almost I'm gonna go a step further. I think people have flipped the image of even something like Jesus Christ into an idol. We've turned it into something that's not as profound and deep as it was meant to be. We're not looking beneath the surface at the values and the—

Linsey · 11:22
No longer a compass.

Reggie · 11:23
Yeah.

Mary · 11:24
It's not this eternal big picture macro thing. It becomes very bland and superficial. So I am surrounded on all sides by idols is how I feel, and I worship at the altar of a few like TikTok.

Tim · 11:38
She's gonna get real.

Mary · 11:41
Coffee.

Tim · 11:42
Like, yeah, you know, those are called addictions.

Linsey · 11:45
Sure.

Mary · 11:46
And you could maybe pull on that thread, you know. So I don't—

Tim · 11:51
please, addictions.

Mary · 11:52
Idolatry is everywhere. And I don't mean that in like the strictly Christian, old-school biblical sense, just generally.

Tim · 12:00
It does change the feel of it when you say idolatry versus idols.

Linsey · 12:03
It really does.

Reggie · 12:04
Yeah.

Tim · 12:04
Yeah, I know.

Reggie · 12:06
It feels more like profound than like, oh, yeah, I'm pretty deep, guys.

Linsey · 12:10
I don't know.

Tim · 12:11
Just dropped the weight in on you.

Mary · 12:13
When you unfolded it, I was like, all right, this is going to be the episode. Linsey, we don't know each other that well, but buckle up. But then he said American Idol.

Linsey · 12:25
Yeah.

Mary · 12:26
And I was like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. Also that.

Tim · 12:29
Oh yeah. There's lighthearted idols. No, you know what? When I first started watching it, I was more in like the Christian religion. psychologically, or what do you call it? Philosophical?

Reggie · 12:40
Philosophical.

Tim · 12:42
Whatever it was, my being was more into the Christian religion. And I did feel like we were idolizing these people.

Reggie · 12:49
Yeah.

Linsey · 12:49
But it's—

Mary · 12:50
That was the point.

Reggie · 12:51
Yeah.

Mary · 12:51
Right? Like the K-pop idols.

Linsey · 12:53
Right.

Mary · 12:53
That's the point. Come worship.

Reggie · 12:55
Right.

Tim · 12:56
But it's like it was new to me because it was called American Idol.

Linsey · 12:59
Yeah.

Tim · 12:59
When we have generations of the same thing.

Reggie · 13:03
Totally.

Tim · 13:03
So it's like, I don't know why I like hyperfocused on it and I tried to make it the thing that was wrong versus—

Reggie · 13:09
I mean, I will say I also grew up Christian and there was that whole like, thou shalt not have any other gods before me or idols before me or whatever. And so I absolutely took it to heart. I was the same way. I was like, you know, don't look up to anything too much. Don't put anything on a pedestal. And so I think, I, of course, cut out of the whole Christian religion way long ago, but there was still this residual sort of what was left over.

Linsey · 13:40
Unlearning.

Reggie · 13:40
Yeah, the unlearning of that.

Tim · 13:41
Yeah, definitely, because it sinks deep in.

Reggie · 13:44
And not that I need to have idols, but I definitely see when people are doing good in the world, I wouldn't say I idolize them, but I will say that I Definitely have a deep, deep amount of gratitude and appreciation.

Tim · 13:59
Respect.

Reggie · 14:00
Yeah.

Mary · 14:01
I don't know.

Reggie · 14:02
Which could feel like idolizing.

Linsey · 14:03
Yeah.

Mary · 14:04
Idolize people. I don't idolize celebrities so much, but I idolize people. Like, yeah, I'll meet somebody and they're really sparkly and I'm just obsessed. And I'm thinking, this person is the answer to all the questions that I've had. Like, let me go find answers in that person.

Reggie · 14:20
Yeah.

Mary · 14:20
We had an episode, I will not name the episode or the person, but you just fall—

Reggie · 14:25
Oh, I know what episode you're talking about.

Mary · 14:26
You just find yourself falling into the deepest well and you're taking it in. But I do that with a lot of people, I find, and it takes me a minute to reel back in and say, oh no, this energy is mine. And I don't know, it's a tricky thing.

Tim · 14:40
Yeah, I think the thing that drives me crazy about idols in general is that it's like a It's like a stuck place. Idols are things that mean something and they stay the same. They stay consistent, you know, like a statue or a person. Because we idolize people that are constantly changing, but we idolize something about them that we think—

Mary · 15:01
Yeah, we fixate.

Tim · 15:02
That we love. We fixate. We obsess over something. And for me, the way that idolization has kind of filtered through my maturity and growing up and kind of developing my relationship with God is that the idolization is what keeps you from finding the truth.

Reggie · 15:22
Mm-hmm.

Tim · 15:23
Because you get stuck on these assumptions about what is good and real and right, and, and you don't move past it. And, and I've been recently going through this moment where the God I know and love isn't the same all the time, even though he says he never changes. He isn't the same because People are always different. Like, we're all these unique universes of connections and upbringing and relationships. None of us literally have anything similar because we're raised in such different places.

Mary · 15:55
Yeah.

Linsey · 15:55
And I wonder if that's by design.

Tim · 15:56
Yeah, totally by design.

Linsey · 15:58
When someone's asking you to idolize something, whether it's a celebrity or a religious figure, they want you to get stuck in that and not be open to change and evolution.

Tim · 16:10
Exactly, because they—

Linsey · 16:11
Growth.

Tim · 16:11
Yeah, they fear that growth, like they're going to lose control.

Mary · 16:14
Yeah.

Tim · 16:15
So the idols are the thing that keep us from growing and from expanding. And so one of the key examples, and people like— I get into discussions about the Bible because that to me, you said Jesus Christ, but I think more the Bible has become an idol to a lot of people.

Reggie · 16:29
It has, and not in a good way.

Tim · 16:32
No, not in a good way, because they, they use their understanding of what it says Yeah. And that's the idol. So they make this book, this thing they can like beat people over the head with or hurt people with because they're interpreting it in a certain way. But so when I talk about this idea of God changing, being something unique to everyone, it's this— when Moses was in the desert, he raised an idol. It's a serpent on a stick because everyone was sick. And so God told him to raise this serpent on a stick. So first of all, he's like breaking his own rule because that's kind of like what the pagan religions were doing around them. So he raises the stick, everyone gets healed. And then 200 years later, that thing, they had been worshiping it in the temple because it was the thing Moses used, and then God asked them to destroy the idol 200 years later. So you see how God once makes it a miraculous thing that was like against the understanding of what they were supposed to do, to do a miracle, and then later—

Linsey · 17:27
He manipulates it.

Tim · 17:27
It's an idol that's holding them back and asks them to destroy it.

Reggie · 17:31
Right.

Tim · 17:31
So it's not like this— that's the thing about idols, they get us stuck, and we get, we get held by our assumptions or our expectations.

Mary · 17:39
There's this— oh, go ahead.

Reggie · 17:41
I was gonna say, I think it's funny that, like, I think of all the figures, historical figures that you could, like, worship, I would say of someone who is a non-Christian, Jesus would be one because of the way he lived his life. Like, he is someone— like, if you said be more Jesus-like, I'm okay with that. You don't have to be a Christian to be more Jesus-like. You could just be a good human.

Mary · 18:02
However, they've got a whole Trinity thing going on.

Reggie · 18:04
I know, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Yeah, well, you know, but I almost think that they've taken Jesus and made him a false idol because what they've done is they've taken the parts of him that they like and they've thrown— like for instance, I would, you know, and certainly will out myself as someone that's not very fond of super— I'm not very fond of far left or right.

Linsey · 18:26
Right.

Reggie · 18:27
But far right has taken this Jesus and used it in this almost like weaponry and not in a way where they're saying, you know, like for instance, They seem to be completely against feeding the homeless people and the sick people and the poor and like taking care and being kind and loving your neighbors and all those things that I would consider to be very Jesus-like. It seems like they're vehemently against it, which makes it seem to me like, well, who are you worshiping? Because it's not Jesus.

Linsey · 18:57
The contradiction is deafening.

Reggie · 18:58
Yeah.

Tim · 18:59
Hypocrisy. What you will find though is I think in political arenas, and I see this sometimes in the people I know and love, people get hopped up on a thing, like a trend, like, you know, pull yourself up by your bootstraps. But if you know, if those same people in real life situations are the most giving people.

Reggie · 19:19
Oh, are they?

Tim · 19:20
Yeah, the ones that I know, like they're in the conservative, far-right conservative crowd, but they give so much. And I think there are people out there who we assume to be that way because that is the narrative, you know, like There is this strong, like, you deserve it. You've used capitalism to gain your wealth and you can keep all your wealth. You don't have to share it. Like, there is kind of that tight grip. But the ones I know who are kind of positioned with that side are so giving. They donate money. They give money. They buy food for these closets, you know, these pantries.

Reggie · 19:53
With no strings attached.

Tim · 19:54
Yeah, with no strings attached. Sometimes it's for a tax write-off. But it's interesting to find, I think, to find where politics is trying to divide us and to find where people actually are. Because I've had a friend told me, more people than you know and than you expect are in the middle.

Linsey · 20:11
Yeah, right.

Tim · 20:12
Between the extremes.

Reggie · 20:14
I would like to think that. Yeah, absolutely.

Mary · 20:16
I'm really curious, Linsey, you said you thought of your daughter and how she sort of idolizes Moana at this moment in life. And I think Many of us as children, and we watch other children go through that phase, I start to question what's the difference between an idol and a role model.

Reggie · 20:33
Right.

Mary · 20:34
But I wonder, are there characters that you've seen in media that you would be really upset if your daughter had latched onto in a similar way? Probably.

Linsey · 20:45
I don't— I'm trying to think. We're pretty, I mean, pretty considerate and like we, I guess we try to vet, I would say, what she watches. I mean, we're not like controlling, but like PBS is fair game. Anything on PBS.

Reggie · 21:00
Absolutely.

Linsey · 21:00
And very few Disney.

Mary · 21:03
Yeah.

Linsey · 21:04
Like there's definitely some, I mean, there's been some date, you know, some older movies that I grew up with and then older than that that are very dated.

Reggie · 21:11
And there are still some—

Linsey · 21:13
And you watch them and you're like, oh my gosh, I can't believe— Oh, I can't think of one specifically right now, but There's a lot of patriarchy and colonialism baked into the design. Oh, yeah.

Reggie · 21:21
I mean, there's a lot of the other princesses and them needing—

Tim · 21:24
Yeah.

Mary · 21:25
You know, needing—

Linsey · 21:27
yeah, they're this damsel in distress. I'm like, nope, we're not watching.

Tim · 21:29
Turn it off.

Mary · 21:31
Wait a minute. You're trying to tell me she's pretty and she's smart?

Linsey · 21:34
Yeah.

Reggie · 21:34
Yeah.

Mary · 21:35
Must be a fairy tale.

Reggie · 21:36
I watched— my kids and I, my son and the twins, we watched Castle in the Sky, Miyazaki's movie. Wow.

Mary · 21:45
It's been a long time. since I watched that one.

Reggie · 21:46
Well, you would be kind of shocked if you watched it today because I'd never seen it, so I'm looking at it with fresh eyes. It's like one of the few Studio Ghibli movies that I haven't seen. But there's this one scene where Sheeta, who is the young girl character— Sheeta and Pazu— I guess she's sort of the arc, the the antagonist in the movie, Dola, she's got these grown-ass men sons and they're all like— seem like one has got a full beard, like seemingly like in their like 20s and like late 20s, early 30s, and they are actually making advances toward this little girl. This is one moment where she's in this room and they sneak up and they're peeping in on her, and then one guy comes in and he like Closes the door behind him and he's like, well, I don't have anything else going on. And I'm like, what is happening right now? And they were just fumbling over themselves. So they either— they should have been more like transparent with what the age gap was so we can understand. Maybe she was really 18 and they were like 21 or 22, I don't know. But she seemed— they portrayed her like she was maybe like 13, 14, 15, something like that. And these It was just unsettling for me. My kids were like, oh, they're so cute, fumbling over themselves for her. And I was like, I wouldn't call that cute.

Linsey · 23:18
No.

Tim · 23:18
They were idolizing her.

Reggie · 23:20
They were idolizing her. They were— that was the epitome of idolizing.

Tim · 23:23
Yeah, I think—

Reggie · 23:24
They were like bringing her flowers, which is like bringing the, you know, the gift to the altar.

Tim · 23:29
Well, I think in old cultures, I mean, girls were betrothed at young ages.

Reggie · 23:33
I would say actually In— as it pertains to idolizing, I think in relationships is where it happens a lot, where you have one person that is so in love and infatuated with the other, and they— to the point where they are idolizing them, which puts an incredible amount of strain. I've seen this play out over and over again where somebody falls in love with someone and they were just like, oh man, they're the greatest, and blah, blah, blah. And the other person, you don't get the same vibe from them.

Tim · 24:01
Yes.

Reggie · 24:01
And then, yeah, No big surprise it doesn't last.

Mary · 24:04
And then I'll speak from my own experience and from having watched other people do it and cringe and think, oh, that was me.

Linsey · 24:12
Oh, I'm the problem.

Tim · 24:13
You've been there.

Mary · 24:14
But you, you like fall in love in whatever sense. And you put this person on a pedestal, idolize them, and suddenly, you know, something will change. It will shift. And they're not behaving the way that you expected them to behave because you associated them, like you were saying, with these things. Some sort of pedestal, yeah. perfect, and yet they're not behaving toward me in the way that someone who's perfect would. And if over time you start resenting them as if they are the problem, but it wasn't— the issue is your own expectation.

Tim · 24:44
Totally.

Mary · 24:44
And you just start projecting, and eventually it becomes very bitter and, yes, resentful and painful.

Reggie · 24:52
And you have set a precedent that they can never really live up to.

Mary · 24:54
And you, you like blame them for it, work yourself up into this fervor, and it takes some distance to step back and think, wow, I really hurt my own feelings. Oh, come on. But I guess that's growing up.

Reggie · 25:08
That's growing up.

Tim · 25:10
Yeah.

Reggie · 25:10
Heart pains, heart trauma.

Tim · 25:12
And it's partially because you take the idol that you have about the perfect person, and then you kind of put it on them.

Mary · 25:18
Yeah.

Reggie · 25:19
Yeah.

Tim · 25:19
For a moment they spark that like, yeah, they could be this thing.

Reggie · 25:22
Right.

Tim · 25:23
They just do it for me.

Linsey · 25:24
And that clouds your judgment too, right? Or how you see them.

Reggie · 25:27
Yeah. Oh, absolutely.

Mary · 25:28
It also forces— I mean, even saying the phrase, it puts them on a pedestal, implies this. It creates this distance between you. You can't be like cozy snuggled up to an idol. It is by definition above and distant from you, right? So if you are actually seeking connection with that person, you have to take them off the pedestal. You have to see them wholeheartedly. But if you'd rather have something to worship, if you'd rather have— worship is what I just said.

Tim · 25:57
Worship. It's a new type of worship.

Mary · 26:00
I'm good for those. If you would rather have an obsession, and I think a lot of us do for whatever reason, avoidance or anxiety or whatever, you can't have the connection. You don't get to have both.

Tim · 26:13
That is why I think the Bible says don't have no idols, because there's no relationship. And the Bible is all about relationship.

Linsey · 26:20
Yeah.

Tim · 26:20
Jesus was all about relationship. So that's why I think that it's— when it's turned into this thing where you have to be this way, and that's, I think, what the political agenda is, is trying to— like you were saying, they're trying to sameness, put a thing on like, you can only vote this way, you can only care about this, you can only hate these people.

Linsey · 26:39
You can't change your mind.

Tim · 26:40
And you can't change your mind, and you can't be free because of all the risk that comes with opening yourself up to unknown things. And so idolization keeps relationship from happening. It stagnates it. It makes it cold.

Mary · 26:54
Hot take. Hot take. New, new hot take.

Reggie · 26:59
Oh, new hot take.

Linsey · 27:00
Nail on the head.

Mary · 27:00
Brands are idols.

Tim · 27:02
Oh yes.

Mary · 27:03
Our whole job is to create idols.

Tim · 27:06
Yeah. They have rules. They have guidelines.

Reggie · 27:10
Yeah.

Tim · 27:11
They have the exterior, the polished exterior.

Mary · 27:14
And the whole point is to make people worship them. The whole point is to make people obsess and want to consume and be with, and yet—

Tim · 27:22
Stand at a distance.

Reggie · 27:24
Yeah.

Mary · 27:25
You don't have control over it. You don't have reciprocity from it. You don't get to dictate to the brand what the brand does, but the brand gets to—

Tim · 27:35
Set the rules and—

Mary · 27:36
Set the rules.

Reggie · 27:37
That's funny. And we don't typically do like interview style on this, but I am curious, as someone who— Calm down.

Mary · 27:46
No time like the present. Get ready, Linsey.

Reggie · 27:47
As someone who has been a brand designer but is now really focused on your natural media art, fine art, like, what's— what has that been like? And to move from having to build brands up to be idols to now building yourself?

Tim · 28:05
Yeah, yeah.

Reggie · 28:07
You're the brand. You're focused. Like, you have focused all your brand energy into yourself. Yeah.

Linsey · 28:13
Well, I mean, the most obvious being that that gave me the skills to, to be able to, to do art successfully, right? Because I tried before and failed multiple times because I didn't know the business side. I didn't know the marketing side. But I think learning— I think my biggest lesson from moving from one thing to the other and how to do it properly, or at least in a way that works for me, is authenticity, right? And not, not—

Reggie · 28:40
Mm-hmm.

Linsey · 28:42
fallen into that idol trap that, you know, look at my art, it's the best, this is— don't you want that? You know, so I don't present it that way, or at least I try not to.

Reggie · 28:51
No, you don't actually. I think you do it really well.

Linsey · 28:53
I more just want to focus on, you know, making the viewers, and whether they're collectors or not, feel invested and feel part of the process, and at least try to tap in, invite them to tap into what I guess, sensations that practice provides me. So I don't know, you know, I don't know. And I got away from the overpolished, you know, content that I shared that I used to do for myself as a brand designer and interior designer, and then for other, you know, clients as well. Which I used to do a lot. And I would become just obsessed with how that's reading for that client or for For my own business. And so getting away from that and—

Tim · 29:36
So you feel more authentic in doing your art?

Linsey · 29:40
Yes.

Tim · 29:41
You know what's interesting?

Linsey · 29:41
But I didn't when I tried it years before, right?

Mary · 29:44
Yeah.

Linsey · 29:44
I didn't understand how, like, what not to do.

Tim · 29:48
You just not care now?

Linsey · 29:49
I mean, I care.

Tim · 29:51
No, but like, what gave you that? Like, what gave you that sense of like, I can be who I am now?

Linsey · 29:56
Honestly, this is going to make me cry. I'm going to try not to cry. Oh, no, cry.

Linsey · 30:00
My daughter.

Reggie · 30:03
Her ratings will go up if you tell.

Linsey · 30:04
When I was— well, when I was, I think, you know, making sure that she understands that it's okay to be herself, obviously, is something that I want to instill in parenting that I have to constantly remind myself multiple times a day. But I think when I was on the precipice of, do I stop my design work and go full-time artist? Do I try to do both? One of the, I guess, final nudges for me, I think it was when she first started going to Mountain City or Little Grove. And we were at one of the events. It might have been an open house or something. I don't remember exactly what. And she's never met a stranger, so she'll go up and introduce whoever.

Linsey · 30:46
Yeah, that's my mom.

Linsey · 30:47
She's an artist.

Mary · 30:48
Oh my God.

Linsey · 30:49
And I've never really allowed myself to call myself that before.

Reggie · 30:53
I love it.

Linsey · 30:54
And that was right when I was kind of making that decision. Do I shut the client Or to focus on this, you know.

Reggie · 31:02
I love that.

Linsey · 31:03
So that gave me, I guess, my mission. Out of the mouth of a silver horse.

Reggie · 31:05
I think you've done a really good job with the transition. I used to be a big fan of your— Tim and I both were— your really polished, like, designs. Like, your— I liked how you used to—

Linsey · 31:16
I spent an embarrassing amount of time on it.

Reggie · 31:17
I know. I can imagine.

Tim · 31:18
No one will say that truth.

Reggie · 31:20
Right, right.

Tim · 31:21
It's like a deep obsession, and you have to give, sacrifice yourself to make that work.

Reggie · 31:27
Yeah.

Linsey · 31:27
And going back to art was to kind of not cure, but as a treatment for that perfectionism, right?

Reggie · 31:32
And pull yourself away from it.

Mary · 31:34
Yeah.

Reggie · 31:34
But I gotta—

Linsey · 31:35
I'm specific.

Reggie · 31:36
I gotta brag about you a little bit because her— I think the way that you did that transition and that authenticity part, like, she makes her own charcoal. Like, she'll actually go and get sticks and burn them down in a can and then use them to draw with.

Mary · 31:54
That's me.

Reggie · 31:54
And she would like—

Linsey · 31:57
That's my desperation to get away from the computer.

Tim · 31:59
Yeah, touch material.

Reggie · 32:02
It's the coolest fucking thing. And I think I could see, as if, you know, if I were like this big art collector, seeing that— Which we will be one day.

Linsey · 32:11
Me and you both.

Reggie · 32:12
Absolutely.

Tim · 32:12
You are. You're just not buying them yet. Yes, yes.

Reggie · 32:15
I'm collecting them in here, right? I'm saving them in Instagram.

Mary · 32:19
But that will be my final form is patron of the arts.

Reggie · 32:23
Oh, hell yeah.

Mary · 32:23
That's the mountain I'm climbing.

Reggie · 32:25
Absolutely. 100%. Same page, same thing.

Tim · 32:27
Is that your idol?

Mary · 32:28
Admirable.

Reggie · 32:29
Yeah.

Mary · 32:29
My idol's myself.

Tim · 32:31
No, your future self.

Mary · 32:32
Yeah, maybe.

Reggie · 32:34
Yeah.

Mary · 32:34
I could buy that.

Linsey · 32:36
It's not a bad thing.

Tim · 32:37
Oh, well, here's the thing about why I asked you about being authentic, being an artist, is that I just watched this interview with Seth Godin. You know him? He wrote The Gap and— or the— I don't know what it's called. Who cares? Seth Godin. We all know him. He was just talking to someone about authenticity, and he said that authenticity is a problem because people say it and it's not possible. And I'm gonna— he says, when you go to see your doctor, you don't want them to be authentically themselves. You want them to be their best self working on you.

Mary · 33:07
True.

Tim · 33:07
When you go to— anyone you see. And so when you sign up to do social media, you don't want to see someone be authentically themselves on any given day. You want them to show you their best stuff. That's what you're paying for. So these people that are saying they want to be authentic are just getting away from the point or getting away from the job that they're doing, the part they're playing. And he also said perfectionism, how perfectionism is just someone stating that it'll never be perfect, so I never have to deliver.

Linsey · 33:33
Hmm.

Tim · 33:34
And it's funny you bring both words up in the same story because I think they are these weird— but, but when it comes to art, it's different because art is an expression. You want— I mean, maybe this is wrong. Maybe Michael— when Michael Jackson or when Queen or when Bono gets on stage, do you want them to come out and be the authentically themselves, or do you want them to come out and perform the song you came to see?

Reggie · 33:56
I want each song to be different.

Tim · 33:59
Than the record?

Reggie · 34:00
Than the record, yeah. Like going to see Pearl Jam ages ago, and they ended with this epic version of Yellow Leadbetter that was so different from the album that I was like, oh.

Tim · 34:11
I'm just fascinated by this idea of authenticity, because I feel like I've always wanted to be authentic. But do people want to see authenticity, really?

Reggie · 34:24
Yeah.

Tim · 34:24
You know? When you see authenticity, it's very uncomfortable.

Mary · 34:27
Yeah.

Tim · 34:27
You know? Your authenticity shows up beautiful. I mean, like your work and everything. But there are some people in their authenticity are a broken down thing.

Mary · 34:36
There are also people who hold up the word authenticity as a way to justify being a dick. Yes.

Reggie · 34:43
That's true.

Mary · 34:44
Let's just call it.

Tim · 34:44
Like they're telling you the truth.

Linsey · 34:46
Disrespectful.

Tim · 34:48
Yeah.

Reggie · 34:48
Disrespectful.

Mary · 34:48
Yeah.

Linsey · 34:48
Yeah.

Tim · 34:48
He says it like it is.

Mary · 34:50
This is who I am.

Reggie · 34:51
He's authentic. No.

Mary · 34:53
I was— oh well, probably. I think it's all of them.

Reggie · 34:58
Oh, I think so too. We're on the same page.

Mary · 35:00
When you— when we first brought up the topic of authenticity and how that sort of helps us draw the line between idolatry and something else, natural gravitation and attraction, I guess, is the opposite. I started trying to think of what, what breaks idolatry. What's— what are the tools? And authenticity is one. I find that very, very difficult because I seek to perform in all ways.

Tim · 35:30
I want to perform. And that shouldn't be frowned upon. Like, performance isn't a bad thing.

Reggie · 35:33
Right.

Mary · 35:34
Like a doctor. You want a doctor to perform at a certain level.

Tim · 35:37
You want to play— actors in a play to perform.

Mary · 35:39
Yeah.

Tim · 35:40
Actors in a movie to perform.

Mary · 35:41
I want athletes to perform.

Linsey · 35:42
Right.

Mary · 35:42
It's actually a wonderful— I think there's something about the American spirit that is about performance and achievement, and we've taken it to an extreme and idolized parts of it. But I wonder if a component for me that breaks it down and makes something more connective and real is the ability to be messy or the permission to be messy and/or the permission to change your mind. Yeah, to feel confident to step forward and say, I'm changing.

Linsey · 36:13
So that's a huge thing. And I think maybe it kind of touched on in the past, maybe at some AIGA meetings or something, but where, you know, you kind of know a little bit of my work history where I was doing strictly brand design, and then I started looping in interiors more again.

Reggie · 36:31
With Jenny.

Linsey · 36:32
Together. And, um, and then, you know, so it became this whole multidisciplinary thing, right? And there's the whole battle on that.

Mary · 36:39
I was gonna say, do it all.

Tim · 36:39
Like, is it good or bad?

Mary · 36:40
Is it good or bad?

Linsey · 36:41
Like, I don't want to be a Jill of all trades, but I also, you know, can show that you can do these different things and every project can be different. It's great and it is fun and interesting. But a big part of that, and also leading into deciding whether or not to leave design behind and go for art again, is this like, how is that going to read to other people? How is the fact that I'm changing my mind, does it show that I'm not committing?

Tim · 37:08
Yeah.

Linsey · 37:08
Does it show that I can't stay focused? Because I can. And I think I finally was able to, you know, give myself permission and even pat myself on the back a little bit for being able to see when another door opens or when it's time to pivot. Like, I had a really big contract with a publishing company. I was the art director for several publications.

Reggie · 37:30
Wow.

Linsey · 37:30
And the company was, you know, there's an acquisition and 90% of their staff was laid off. Their contracts were terminated. And that was one of mine.

Reggie · 37:38
That was a big one.

Linsey · 37:39
And it was right before COVID Luckily, you know, thanks to all the moonlighting and others, you know, I had plenty of clients. So I was like, okay, this is my time to go with that. And I didn't pursue any other employment or bigger contracts. I just kept them, the clients that I had, and continued to grow from there. And then, you know, the next time something like that happened, pivot, pivot, pivot instead of panic. I mean, there was some panic there.

Tim · 38:06
I'm not going to lie.

Reggie · 38:08
Pivot, pivot, panic.

Mary · 38:10
Pivot, pivot, panic. You know, like, I see a commission in our future. Pivot, don't panic.

Linsey · 38:15
But that, that was a big struggle for part of it was, you know, how does this look to everyone else? So there's family to people who've been following my Instagram for years and they see me doing this and now she's doing that. What is she doing?

Mary · 38:27
She's all over the place.

Tim · 38:28
Does she even know herself?

Reggie · 38:28
Right.

Linsey · 38:30
Is she good at any of it? And I finally just said, screw it.

Reggie · 38:34
You're doing it for you.

Mary · 38:35
I'm really putting you on a pedestal right now. It's becoming a problem.

Linsey · 38:38
Don't idolize me.

Tim · 38:39
Don't idolize me. Stop.

Mary · 38:41
I never said I was a role model. I, you know, I've talked about this in the dumbest terms. I tend to reduce something down to a really stupid example. Here's an example of a stupid example. I talk about cutting my hair, changing my hairstyle. One, because my hair is one of the first things people notice about me. Whatever. Move that aside. When I cut my hair, if I do especially a significant shift, like I chopped a lot of my hair off a couple years ago, I feel this sense of distrust. Almost like people can't pin me down. They thought I was this. I think there's a whole gender thing tied up in it.

Tim · 39:18
Yeah.

Mary · 39:18
Yeah. Like, oh, I thought But wait, are we still— what's my— I'm like, nothing has changed here, baby. Like, why is this such a big deal to you?

Tim · 39:26
Still me.

Reggie · 39:26
Yeah.

Mary · 39:27
I'm sorry to bring that up. I know, because you've got the story about shaving your head unexpectedly.

Tim · 39:33
Oh, yeah.

Mary · 39:33
But I think it gives people pause and it doesn't give us— it makes us feel as if we don't have social permission to evolve or to become someone else or to—

Tim · 39:43
Experiment.

Mary · 39:44
experiment or express ourselves in a different way, to discover ourselves through a process.

Linsey · 39:49
And does that come back to other people and how they idolize us and they're, you know, people just have to know too much? Like, what?

Tim · 39:56
Just, you don't have to.

Linsey · 39:58
They're just obsessed with my life.

Reggie · 40:00
They're so nosy.

Tim · 40:01
Real. We have a— we are the nosiest world ever.

Reggie · 40:05
Nosiest civilization.

Mary · 40:06
I got small town trauma. Don't—

Tim · 40:09
What you doing?

Reggie · 40:10
Nosy, nosy. Oh my gosh.

Mary · 40:12
Yeah, well, I think—

Reggie · 40:14
I will say that there is an intersection between authenticity and originality. I think oftentimes if you are truly showing up authentic and if your work is truly authentic, then perhaps if you— whatever your uniqueness is shines through that. And something comes to mind recently, and it was— I don't know if you guys saw Rebel Ice Cream. is getting—

Tim · 40:41
sorry, Post.

Reggie · 40:41
Yeah, yeah, they got Rebel Ice Cream. Yeah, Rebel Ice Cream got sued by the Van Leeuwen.

Mary · 40:48
Van Leeuwen.

Reggie · 40:49
And Van Leeuwen, who was branded by Pentagram— Rebel Ice Cream, the owners did it themselves.

Tim · 40:57
And instead of trying to be their authentic selves and show their originality, they completely copy the Van Leeuwen I don't necessarily think they copied it because it says that the Van Leeuwen brand was only released a year before the release of Rebel. But it was out. I know, but from a product standpoint, you're designing that brand for packaging 2 years ahead if you're going to get things on the shelf.

Reggie · 41:21
Maybe.

Tim · 41:21
Everybody's looking at the same Pinterest boards.

Reggie · 41:25
You think it was just really bad timing?

Tim · 41:26
Yeah, I think it was horrible timing. And all of a sudden you've got like a palette that was popular. You have, you have script writing that's popular and you have simple minimalist. which is popular, and all of a sudden it ends in the same place.

Reggie · 41:38
Well, the sadness is it cost them $23 million and they're folding. They filed Chapter 11.

Mary · 41:43
But don't you think this— well, this is true. I don't care what you think.

Reggie · 41:47
This is true.

Mary · 41:48
This is true. Whatever you say, this is what I believe. That because of the internet, because of globalization and the constant receipts, you would have stories of people putting on shows or circus acts with fake idols, fake things that they dug up. Like they heard about a fossil that had been discovered in South America and somebody would replicate it and go on tour and pretend like they had the original thing.

Linsey · 42:18
Right.

Reggie · 42:18
Right.

Mary · 42:19
We had no way of tracking that or understanding that because journalism and documentation couldn't keep up with people. We couldn't pin people down. But now because everything's everywhere all at once, And you can get both of those in a grocery store, presumably, if you're in the right place in the country.

Reggie · 42:36
Same shelf.

Mary · 42:37
Somebody notices, somebody's IP lawyer is out there hunting these things down. Disney is a great example of this. So it does, it seems to me like we're going to have a rash of these. We're about to have a moment where a bunch of people are designing something behind closed doors, not intending to do harm to a competitor or take credit for it.

Tim · 42:57
Using the same inspiration.

Mary · 42:59
And looking and analyzing the same market and saying, hey, I want to capture the highest value opportunity here and designing to that. And we're getting pretty good at designing fit for function.

Tim · 43:11
Right? And unique is only first to the market. There's nothing unique about design. I mean, we had one episode where we talked about authenticity and it came down to your experience. The original nature of your experience is the only thing unique about this life.

Reggie · 43:26
Right?

Tim · 43:27
You're going to create stuff. If you write songs, if you paint paintings, whatever Whatever you do is going to be inspired and put together by the things you've seen.

Linsey · 43:35
Yeah.

Tim · 43:35
You're gonna be copying things. So I don't know—

Reggie · 43:37
You just hope they're copying in a way where it doesn't feel like the thing that you found your inspiration from.

Tim · 43:41
Right. But capitalism says, I'm losing money because this brand looks like too much like me. So that's wrong. So I'm gonna take this brand down so that I can stand alone as an idol and make as much money as possible. But who said it was wrong to look the same?

Reggie · 43:55
Right.

Mary · 43:55
Right. Well, yeah.

Reggie · 43:57
Copyright, trademark laws.

Mary · 43:59
Right.

Tim · 43:59
Copyright. People trying to steal it and other people thinking, I want all the money.

Mary · 44:05
You also— sorry, this is a fence that I've been building. Look, look, no!

Tim · 44:09
I was like, what's happening here?

Reggie · 44:10
I could see it in my periphery. I'm like, what is she building?

Mary · 44:13
Barry, calm down. I'm potting. It's like that scene in Ghost. There's somebody behind me.

Tim · 44:18
You wanna go behind her and—

Reggie · 44:19
she's like centering some clay in my periphery and I'm like, what?

Mary · 44:24
Onto me more. But no. Another thing I predict we're going to see, and it's already happening. So I think that our nuance on IP law is going to get so specific because so many people make money off of either licensing or commanding a space in terms of specific visual assets. Shapes and colors can be trademarked.

Reggie · 44:50
That was a big one.

Tim · 44:51
They made a rule that you could own a color.

Reggie · 44:52
I know.

Mary · 44:53
That's bonkers.

Reggie · 44:54
I think that was the thing that really got Rebel in trouble because—

Tim · 44:57
Red? You own red?

Reggie · 44:58
Ferrari? With Rebel.

Tim · 44:59
You own red. Red has been around.

Reggie · 45:01
I know, right? But yeah, I will say though, I think with Rebel it was the combination of same color palette, same bold black scripty font, and then—

Mary · 45:12
Yeah, but, and somebody decided that was sufficient to take somebody to court.

Tim · 45:16
No, but, but, um, whatever the color swatch company, they put out a color of the year. Pantone. They put out a color of the year. That's the same color So is everyone allowed to use that color or only one company that brings it out first?

Mary · 45:28
Right.

Tim · 45:29
That's what I'm saying. Fuck that. Like, like protection. Like I need to make all mine.

Reggie · 45:34
Preach, Tim.

Tim · 45:35
I just feel like it's over. It's out of control. And maybe because we built a system that eats itself.

Reggie · 45:40
I mean, we are very litigation happy in this. I mean, God, man, people are just looking for reasons to like sue people. It's like—

Mary · 45:50
It's gonna be interesting.

Reggie · 45:51
It's very—

Tim · 45:51
like, I don't even know what—

Reggie · 45:53
We're so broke as a civilization that the only way we can get rich is to sue other people. It seems like that's what's happening.

Tim · 46:00
Well, like you mentioned MrBeast, and no one can copy MrBeast.

Reggie · 46:03
No.

Tim · 46:04
There have been people that have tried, but you can't copy that presence.

Reggie · 46:07
Right.

Tim · 46:08
So that's where it's coming to this place of like, who are you in person?

Linsey · 46:12
Right.

Tim · 46:12
Is the only thing left until AI can really copy that, which I don't even know that humans would accept it. It's almost like a virus that your body can't accept. Like if this is a fake MrBeast, I don't even want to watch it. This is a fake U2 playing these songs.

Reggie · 46:27
At some point we revolt as a population, as a civilization. We say no.

Linsey · 46:31
It's already started.

Reggie · 46:32
The line has been crossed. Yeah, I think so too.

Linsey · 46:35
It is with art too. I mean—

Reggie · 46:37
Oh my gosh.

Linsey · 46:38
Thank goodness, at least for now, it's working in our favor and people prefer those imperfections and those blemishes and those maker's marks, right? Yeah.

Mary · 46:46
We're building on that principle and I hope that pans out for us because this is low fidelity.

Tim · 46:51
Is this our maker's mark?

Reggie · 46:52
Nobody's going to AI Why would they copy this shit?

Tim · 46:56
Why would they want to?

Mary · 46:57
When we can transcend, when we can get through this litigious period where we're fighting and trying to defend and getting crazy about it, it's gonna get so playful and vibrant and fun. I'm imagining a world where somebody goes to the effort to make an AI avatar of me and come up with things for the AI avatar to say. That would be hilarious. And I'm like, okay, if we get to that point, how do we clown it? How do we invest in the bit?

Tim · 47:22
Right. And that's the thing you were saying about brand becoming idols. I think it's easy to idolize a surface, a superficial quality.

Reggie · 47:30
Yeah.

Tim · 47:31
And you can copy a superficial quality like the 2 ice cream companies, but I guarantee you the heart of those companies, the soul of why they do what they do is different.

Linsey · 47:39
Mm-hmm.

Tim · 47:39
So—

Mary · 47:40
And if that were more visible—

Tim · 47:41
But maybe it's not a matter— maybe there's only a certain amount of ways to be visible. Like if both companies like minimalism, you know, if both companies like this color palette, It's okay to like the same thing, right? Like, we can all buy the same album, right? You're not gonna sue me for buying the album that you own. I probably won't. So it's like, but the people that buy Rebel are not the same people that buy Van Leeuwen because Rebel was a keto ice cream.

Reggie · 48:09
Yeah.

Tim · 48:09
Van Leeuwen is a normal ice cream.

Reggie · 48:11
It's a normal ice cream.

Tim · 48:11
So you're like, it's a different audience.

Mary · 48:13
Although maybe there's some crossover insight that says, hey, more people want to be in this this alternative diet.

Tim · 48:21
Apparently because they sued them, so there's some reason they felt—

Reggie · 48:24
Wait, now you're coming out with a healthier ice cream and you have a very similar brand.

Tim · 48:28
There's fear there.

Mary · 48:29
That's my question, and I don't know that I'll ever get an answer. I think the market will sort itself out over time. I'm kind of bummed that I'm living through it. Hopefully we can accelerate it by having real conversations like this and just get through this angsty teenage phase that the United States is having, and the world maybe is having. But I deeply wonder, yes, you've talked about culturally trending toward minimalism and who can own that, the Pinterest pins being the same for whoever's looking at Pinterest. But I think a lot of these decisions are actually being made based on a very narrow— we're looking for intersectional consumer segments where maximum impact can be found, niching. They both sort of looked at the same niche.

Tim · 49:13
True.

Mary · 49:13
And I imagine maybe Van Leeuwen was trying to to fence in that, you get it.

Tim · 49:18
That's the fence. Oh, that's what you're building.

Mary · 49:21
The fencing. They were trying to protect that market share and hold it for themselves. Meanwhile, from their perception, probably another company has come in and targeted that group and said, hey, you want to jump fence and come over to this side? And maybe it was sneaky or maybe it wasn't, but either way, they were designing with those people in mind. So they arrived at the same solution because those people wanted that thing. But to that I say, if they can be stolen from you, were they even your customer to begin with? Are you doing a good enough job if somebody can just steal them away? You must not have a very fertile, happy place that they're living, or you're not listening to their needs. You need to evolve with them and be in relationship with them, or yeah, people are going to jet.

Tim · 50:08
Right.

Mary · 50:08
And with permission.

Tim · 50:09
Okay. I got a good statement here. It doesn't matter how it looks, It matters how it lives.

Mary · 50:14
Yeah.

Tim · 50:15
That's the thing we get stuck on is the look. But you can buy the best-looking car, but if it doesn't live well— like, I can't buy a sports car because I have 3 kids. That would live horribly. I don't care how it looks. It doesn't live well. And I think branding is the same way. You can make your brand look a certain way, but the way it lives— and I think the world is coming around. Maybe we're creating enough technology to see how something lives, really. From a lot of different perspectives.

Reggie · 50:40
Oh yeah.

Tim · 50:40
Video and live and all of these different—

Reggie · 50:44
And feedback. We can see people giving their reviews and saying—

Tim · 50:47
Yeah, so you can see how something's alive and that's what makes something unique. Something that's alive. Something that's an idol and stationary and glossed in gold, but the inner core is just hollow. It's like a chocolate bunny that has no center chocolate. It's just hollow.

Reggie · 51:03
What a great analogy. The chocolate bunny.

Linsey · 51:04
I think an important part is to pay attention to that, right? Like you said, like, they're jumping ship that quickly, then you haven't been— yeah, you had no foundation to begin with.

Mary · 51:13
You were there out of necessity, not out of love.

Linsey · 51:16
Being able to pivot, like, if it's a career change and stuff, being able to pay attention. Like, the technique that I do right now specifically with charcoal and wood, it became— it literally came from me dropping charcoal on some wood, and weeks later when I cleaned it up, paying attention to that mark and like, oh, wow, I want to— this is interesting. I could have just tossed it, and I probably would have if I cleaned it up right away.

Mary · 51:37
Right.

Linsey · 51:38
You know, so like being able to pay attention to those cues.

Reggie · 51:40
Oh, happy accident.

Tim · 51:41
I love that.

Linsey · 51:42
Even the brand and like how it lives, how it's performing, how it's not performing.

Tim · 51:46
Would you ever go back to brand design? Are you so over it now? You look, you look at us, you're like, you guys are doing some shit. I don't even know why you're doing what you're doing.

Linsey · 51:55
I know how hard it is.

Mary · 51:56
I'm gonna ask a different question with the same I didn't expect that. Do you take commissions?

Linsey · 52:01
Yes.

Mary · 52:03
There you go. That's the way the world is going, in my opinion.

Linsey · 52:06
I have a very different, like, way of doing it too.

Mary · 52:09
Totally.

Reggie · 52:10
I'll bet.

Linsey · 52:10
So that it doesn't feel like client work again, right? Yeah.

Mary · 52:13
And the whole point is, if I want to commission you, the artist—

Tim · 52:17
You want her work.

Mary · 52:17
It needs to be—

Linsey · 52:18
They don't get to weigh in.

Mary · 52:20
And I'll feel it.

Reggie · 52:20
They don't get to say what you're gonna do.

Tim · 52:23
You're like, I'm gonna paint it for you, sure.

Linsey · 52:24
I think the size. They tell me what they're most drawn to. What about my work they're most drawn to.

Mary · 52:28
What inspires them.

Linsey · 52:28
Yeah.

Tim · 52:30
Wow. What if branding was more like that?

Reggie · 52:32
I can see you, man.

Tim · 52:35
Reggie, I want to hire you and just make whatever you want.

Mary · 52:37
Do you have clients like that maybe? Like super trusting?

Tim · 52:40
I mean, I think in the early days when you are really close and they had time with you, then they are that trusting. But I think in this world everyone is so afraid of failing and doing it wrong that they're like tight grip. Like, this has got to be perfect and we got to nail this. And it loses that, that like— I think when I used to describe my creative experience as like going in a dark room.

Reggie · 53:03
Your process.

Tim · 53:05
My process.

Mary · 53:06
Now you literally have one.

Tim · 53:07
I mean, I would go into a project, no idea how I'm gonna come to the result, and I'm like feeling my way around in the room and I'm looking, I'm knocking things over, and I'm like stumbling over myself. And then all of a sudden I start to feel around and it starts to make sense and it's It's almost like I get that like Daredevil, you know, where he can see even though he's blind, and I start to see everything happen.

Reggie · 53:27
Yeah, so funny.

Tim · 53:29
That's how it would feel. I never see it before it happens. Isn't that the weirdest thing?

Reggie · 53:32
It's like, I actually love that our processors are so different because mine is completely the opposite of that. Like, typically—

Tim · 53:38
You go into a lit room and knock things over?

Reggie · 53:39
Yeah, yeah. No, there's just been so many times where I, I am, especially for brand design, and I'm in discovery I am actually asking questions, and while people are talking, and I'm learning more about their business in real time. And I think part of it honestly was kind of a almost like a crutch because I hated taking notes, and I hated having to go back and look at those notes later. Like that was just so much extra work, and it's tedious. And so I would be really act. I would record the session, but I'm really engaged. and actively listening in the session. And I'd say probably, I mean, I probably have designed 15 marks literally in the meeting in my head where I just had to go and execute it later. And so I already knew, I walked out of the meeting already knowing exactly what the brand was gonna look like. And even if I pitched 2 different concepts, it was always the one that I came up with in the meeting—

Linsey · 54:37
Your initial one.

Reggie · 54:38
In my head that they went for.

Tim · 54:40
That's cool. What if you were to do that and then you get into design and you design it and you pitch it and they love it and then you release it or you start looking deeper and someone says, hey, this other brand already has that.

Reggie · 54:50
Looks just like that.

Mary · 54:51
Yeah.

Tim · 54:51
What do you do then?

Reggie · 54:52
Well, I say, guys, I hope you have $23 million because they're going to sue you.

Tim · 54:56
I believe in it.

Reggie · 54:57
It ain't on me.

Linsey · 54:58
No revisions.

Mary · 54:59
This is a huge issue in our industry though. I can't tell you how many naming projects I've worked on where people will pick a name and then they get halfway through the trademark vetting process. Hopefully they have their own trademark vetting process because I am not an IP attorney and I tell them that every time.

Linsey · 55:14
That's cool.

Mary · 55:15
But they either, they skip the process or they gloss over the process and then they discover that either there's somebody who has it completely and that's a bust and they have to go back to the drawing board. Or there's something that's very similar that they didn't use the right keyword search to find. So it really takes category immersion and feeling confident that you You've explored and traversed the space. And frankly, I mean, there are a lot of agencies that hyper-specialize in certain industries because of this.

Reggie · 55:44
Right.

Mary · 55:44
And you may hire an agency for that reason, but there's also a lot of value in bringing fresh thinking and cross-category thinking. And those agencies that you hire for that purpose, the big picture guys, you gotta be the fallback. You gotta be the one to bring the market insight, to bring the inside subject matter expert, And I think when we ask for that on a project team, people tend to think that I'm being high maintenance or whatever, prissy, because I have such a process mindset. But that's really important.

Tim · 56:14
Yeah.

Mary · 56:14
If you're gonna take the fall, if you're gonna have the risk, you need to have somebody in the room who can advise and be watching out for, supervising the process and saying, ah, actually I think we're getting into hot water here. But I agree that brand should be more like a commission. Than like an engineering—

Tim · 56:33
But what do you say to people who don't have all the time and money and resources to do that hard work that you're talking about? It's like when I— when my wife wanted to start her business, we can't go into market research and have trademark lawyers and all this. That's only the things that the big guys can afford, and then they sue the little guys.

Reggie · 56:53
Yeah, well, of course, this is your wife, so you can't—

Tim · 56:55
I mean, Any small company, MyLife's a small little company, but any company of small, I think under $1 million or $2 million, they're running at the edge of survival. They don't have lawyers in the back room looking through everything. And so they get caught in a suit with Van Leeuwen that may have had the group of lawyers in the background. If they can hire Pentagram, they can take down Rebel.

Reggie · 57:18
They could definitely take down Rebel.

Mary · 57:20
Which is, it starts to reveal the absurdity absurdity of it all. And something that when I realized it about trademark law, I don't know a lot about IP law. Most of what I know is about trademark. What I realized about trademark law that reframed the whole thing for me is it's only as valuable, your trademark is only as valuable as the enforcement you put behind it.

Tim · 57:40
Yeah.

Mary · 57:40
Cops are not looking for trademark infringement. You have to have attorneys, researchers doing that work, and somebody like Disney Disney is known for being really on top of that and incredibly litigious.

Reggie · 57:53
Oh, yeah. Oh, yes, they really are.

Mary · 57:54
They have ruined some careers because people infringed on their IP. They also don't— they'll pay people upfront in lump sums, and then you don't get royalties off of the mega billions of dollars they make. But I think it's revealing this— what you're saying is a real problem. I don't think anybody's going to come for your wife until she hits a scale that's threatening to people.

Linsey · 58:15
Right.

Mary · 58:15
But isn't that a— there's an analogy and a metaphor there that we can learn from around, oh, when you step into your power, when you really become a movement, when you get the force of people and support behind you, you're gonna be a threat to someone. Someone is going to get afraid. And we gotta navigate that as a society. How do we handle that?

Linsey · 58:35
I don't know.

Tim · 58:36
Do you think there's enough room for everybody?

Mary · 58:37
If everybody will do it their own different way.

Linsey · 58:41
Right.

Mary · 58:41
If you'll do it the authentic original way.

Tim · 58:44
I don't know if everyone can— can everyone do it? their own original way.

Reggie · 58:46
Because what if somebody's original is too close to somebody else's original? They're going to get sued.

Tim · 58:52
I mean, that's just the way it is. Yeah. I think there is room. I think that's what the whole open source movement was about and should still be about is if we work together, we will get further. When it comes to research, when it comes to building a market, like who in God's name thinks Amazon is a healthy thing to have in our world? That is not a healthy growth. Guilty of using it. And there is no room. Multiple people can't be multi-billion-dollar companies. When that becomes the standard or the goal, obviously you're going to take everyone out you can because you need more room. If a tree's going to grow that big, it needs the whole ground. It needs all the nutrients possible.

Reggie · 59:36
It needs a big field.

Tim · 59:37
I don't know if the way we've built our world Sets an incentive or a standard to allow room for other people. Like, a company doesn't have to grow to that level to still be successful, to still live a good life and to provide a good service.

Reggie · 59:51
I just wonder, like, when you become a trillion-dollar company like Apple, like, at what point is enough enough? Like, at what point— like, they— and they literally just raised all the prices on all of their stuff. And I'm like, if you're a trillion-dollar company, you can afford to absorb the increase, which they said they already had. But like, Like, keep absorbing it. Like, you're a trillion-dollar company.

Mary · 1:00:11
I think this is—

Reggie · 1:00:11
That's more money than, like, you can't even fathom that amount of money. Like, one person or even 100 people couldn't spend that in a lifetime.

Tim · 1:00:21
Oh, no.

Reggie · 1:00:22
It's ridiculous.

Tim · 1:00:22
My daughter's like, can we count to a million? I was like, yeah, I think we could. It takes like 38 days counting, like, for 8 hours a day or something crazy. Or maybe that's 24 hours a day.

Reggie · 1:00:32
It takes—

Tim · 1:00:33
it's a measurable amount of time. You know, to count to a billion takes like 38 years or something crazy. Or maybe 100. It was something astronomically— like you couldn't do it in a lifetime.

Reggie · 1:00:44
I'm sure you've seen those.

Linsey · 1:00:45
You have that many dollars.

Tim · 1:00:45
I know. And so just to know that, I don't even think we comprehend money anymore. Million, billion, trillion, zillion, whatever.

Reggie · 1:00:52
There's a guy who does a really good job of putting that into context. And he'll have— like he'll use either cups, the guy that used the cups. There's another guy I've seen use it with rice. And he'll say, okay, here's this little pile of rice right here. That is $4 million or whatever. That's, that's, or $100 million. So that's a, that's a serious solid millionaire. And then you look at this big giant pile. It's like, that's a billionaire. And you're just like—

Mary · 1:01:20
And then you're like, where's Elon Musk?

Reggie · 1:01:22
I know. And then you go, a trillionaire? Like, that is just—

Tim · 1:01:27
So we've built a market that doesn't have room for everybody.

Linsey · 1:01:30
Yeah.

Tim · 1:01:30
And that is the way capitalism works.

Linsey · 1:01:32
It'd have to be completely started over. Yeah.

Tim · 1:01:35
Oh yeah.

Linsey · 1:01:35
Scarcity.

Reggie · 1:01:35
We have to tear this thing down to the ground and rebuild it like we should with our political system, honestly.

Tim · 1:01:41
Like what if they tore Amazon down? I mean, everyone would complain 'cause they don't get free shipping and instant access.

Reggie · 1:01:47
Right.

Tim · 1:01:47
But what would come up in its place? How many different local communities would pop up out of the space?

Mary · 1:01:56
I agree with you that we've gotten out of hand and that there's no way with the current—

Reggie · 1:02:01
There's no way it's gonna Oh be the same.

Mary · 1:02:02
no, are you being attacked?

Reggie · 1:02:03
Is there a hair on my— my wife's hair is notoriously—

Linsey · 1:02:07
Harris, how dare you?

Reggie · 1:02:08
I'll find them on my—

Mary · 1:02:09
No, I think you're good.

Reggie · 1:02:10
And they're just, it's like tickling me.

Tim · 1:02:14
We'll do a hair check before next episode.

Reggie · 1:02:15
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.

Mary · 1:02:16
By the way, if I've had an alfalfa sprout this whole time, I'm angry at all of you.

Tim · 1:02:20
Definitely.

Mary · 1:02:20
If that's happened.

Tim · 1:02:21
You don't, you don't.

Linsey · 1:02:22
You're good, you're good.

Tim · 1:02:22
Keep saying what you're saying.

Mary · 1:02:23
I—

Tim · 1:02:24
With the alfalfa sprout.

Mary · 1:02:25
I agree that It's gotten out of hand. It's run amok. We got to put it in check. This is too much money for a too small a number of people to have. Wow.

Reggie · 1:02:36
How do you do it?

Mary · 1:02:37
And they've done it by means that they will continue to perpetuate, which is like you're saying, hacking down anything that's in their way. Problematic, needs to go. However, if you let go of being litigious for a minute, if you're a business owner, even a successful business owner like Van Leeuwen, And I don't understand the full situation, so if you work for Van Leeuwen, I'm sorry for whatever I'm about to say.

Reggie · 1:02:59
Don't sue us.

Mary · 1:03:01
But what if you saw that somebody was ripping off your design?

Reggie · 1:03:05
Sue her.

Mary · 1:03:05
Sue me. So sue me.

Linsey · 1:03:08
What if you—

Tim · 1:03:09
I used to say that.

Mary · 1:03:11
Sue me.

Linsey · 1:03:12
Sue me.

Mary · 1:03:13
Don't say that anymore.

Tim · 1:03:14
You can't say it when you become an owner of an agency.

Reggie · 1:03:16
That is funny. Well, let's talk.

Mary · 1:03:18
I mean, we'd have to have something worth taking is what it comes down to.

Reggie · 1:03:22
That's what it is.

Mary · 1:03:22
Take me for all I'm worth. Joke's on you. But imagine if you didn't get so— the word that came to mind was butthurt, but I'll use it.

Linsey · 1:03:33
Yeah.

Mary · 1:03:34
Imagine that you didn't get so upset about it and threatened by it, and instead you got curious and said to yourself, oh, interesting, I wonder why they're doing that. And then you look deeper and maybe you find out that they're trying to capture the This capture is such a weird word for consumers. We've got this very strange vocabulary.

Tim · 1:03:51
Tell me about it.

Mary · 1:03:52
They're trying to capture this segment of your consumer makeup and you feel again concerned that these people are going to leave and you're not going to have money to sustain this business. And of course we all tell ourselves a story about, no, I'm trying to create jobs and support my employees, which heard, but some weird stuff happens through that means of justification. What if you got really curious and said, ah, maybe there's some need that that consumer set is not being met in my brand? Either one, am I willing to adapt and change to get to know them more deeply and maybe do something that brings them back? If they were loyal to me before, we've got a track record, maybe I could convince them. Whether that's a social campaign or a limited time offer or a new line of ice cream that's keto, wouldn't that have been fascinating if they came instead of—

Reggie · 1:04:41
If they leaned into it that way instead of—

Mary · 1:04:43
Instead of— yeah. Instead of saying, let me take this to court and sue the shit out of you and wreck your business.

Reggie · 1:04:49
And your lives.

Mary · 1:04:50
What if they said, yeah, let's innovate. Let me hire some ex-Rebel Ice Cream people and get my own formula going and make the formula better. And then I've still got the design that I was holding territory on to begin with. I had this color system first.

Reggie · 1:05:04
Yeah.

Mary · 1:05:04
I'm not saying—

Linsey · 1:05:05
And then act authentically.

Mary · 1:05:06
Yeah. You don't have to become a keto ice cream just because you see that some of your users want to, but you need to acknowledge that people are going to behave the way that they want to behave and that we're not pawns to be pushed around, sheeple. And by doing the legal move, you're kind of cheating. It's like you're saying, ref, did you see what they did? Referee! Meanwhile, we can't get market regulation to actually fix the big picture problems.

Tim · 1:05:30
What if they just said, oh, they look like us. Well, go try it and see if you like it better.

Linsey · 1:05:34
Yeah.

Tim · 1:05:35
And they're like, you don't like it better? You can buy ours again.

Reggie · 1:05:37
Yeah, yeah.

Tim · 1:05:37
Like, they were threatened, obviously. They were afraid, and they shut it down.

Linsey · 1:05:42
Yeah.

Tim · 1:05:42
And I know that there's a black and white way to look at this, and you just say, yeah, you can't look too much like the other person, you can't sound too much like them.

Mary · 1:05:48
But you two are both wearing denim shirts. Look at you.

Tim · 1:05:50
Great pants. So sue me.

Reggie · 1:05:51
Look at that.

Tim · 1:05:52
So sue me, Reggie.

Reggie · 1:05:53
I'm going to, actually. I've already, I've already texted my lawyer.

Mary · 1:05:57
Paperwork's in progress, baby.

Tim · 1:05:58
Oh my gosh.

Linsey · 1:06:00
You see that in art, the art world too, right? There's lots of like different genres and subject matters and mediums that all mimic one another, right? And they're very similar.

Reggie · 1:06:08
Oh yeah.

Mary · 1:06:09
Take the compliment is what I say.

Linsey · 1:06:11
Yeah. And artists don't have the funds to go and sue someone, you know.

Reggie · 1:06:16
And I think that's why the art community is—

Linsey · 1:06:17
So they have to just kind of be like, oh, that's awesome, how did you do that? I did it this way.

Mary · 1:06:22
And that's when you start to get into craft.

Linsey · 1:06:24
Yes.

Mary · 1:06:25
Process.

Linsey · 1:06:26
And then you collaborate together and you self— you promote one another and you like have a show together. Relationship.

Tim · 1:06:32
Ah, relationship. Brand, Idol, Van Leeuwen, Idol, Surface, artist, relationship.

Mary · 1:06:43
Yeah.

Tim · 1:06:44
Like there is a different, I think, spirit.

Reggie · 1:06:46
I think the art community is definitely more welcoming of people encroaching upon your style. Like you said, one, artists can't be litigious because they typically aren't like millionaires. And then 2, it is kind of like, for instance, Chuck Close, one of my favorite realist painters. I've seen droves of other realist painters like that who've used even probably the same style, how he used to take— basically he would grid out his canvas and he would transfer one color, one block at a time from his—

Linsey · 1:07:23
That's a pretty typical—

Reggie · 1:07:24
Yeah, and people do that and they have really amazing results. But I can't imagine Chuck Close was ever like, I'm gonna sue them because they're doing the same thing I'm doing.

Linsey · 1:07:35
Yeah, you kind of just have to keep doing it. I mean, you get asked out to do collaborations.

Reggie · 1:07:37
They're like, I inspired a generation of people to do really great art.

Tim · 1:07:42
But what it's become though is a speed game because Chuck Close came first, then everyone after is a copycat. Coldplay came first, so Keane is a copycat.

Reggie · 1:07:51
He was a copycat.

Tim · 1:07:51
And so now we've created a market where everyone's like, I gotta get there first. and everyone's like banging each other, elbowing each other out of the way. That's what you're seeing with AI is someone has to get there first. 'Cause then they are the ones that came up with it.

Reggie · 1:08:03
Yeah. Oh, okay.

Tim · 1:08:04
You were the one. So everyone else is a copycat.

Reggie · 1:08:06
Is it just about getting props for having started a movement or?

Tim · 1:08:09
You just, at first they always know that they teach you this in company design. First wins.

Reggie · 1:08:15
First is like such a crazy thing. You ever go to like a social media post And somebody like has the first comment and the first comment is first. I'm like—

Mary · 1:08:26
I saw that recently.

Linsey · 1:08:28
What are they talking about?

Reggie · 1:08:28
I've seen it for years. It's seriously, that is a thing. Like we're in such a competitive mindset that just being the first person to comment nothing on someone's post is like a thing. Right.

Tim · 1:08:39
So now you're not even thinking.

Reggie · 1:08:40
To celebrate.

Tim · 1:08:41
You're just trying to be first. And that's a whole different game you're playing.

Reggie · 1:08:44
It's so weird.

Tim · 1:08:45
Than authenticity or whatever else we're, Like, you're not like, I got married first, I win.

Reggie · 1:08:51
No.

Tim · 1:08:51
Now you got to work with the living thing that you've created.

Mary · 1:08:53
You say that, but then people throw these anniversary parties and they're like, we've been— We did that.

Tim · 1:08:58
Yeah.

Mary · 1:08:58
But we ask athletes to come in first.

Tim · 1:09:01
I know.

Mary · 1:09:01
There's a performance, there's like a pride.

Tim · 1:09:02
Totally.

Reggie · 1:09:03
That's what I'm saying. I think on a competitive landscape—

Tim · 1:09:04
We idolize athleticism in America.

Reggie · 1:09:06
I think athletes should— that's an athletic land, that's a competitive landscape. But I think there's other arenas that should not be competitive, or they shouldn't be competitive to that degree.

Tim · 1:09:16
But when there's There's reward to be offered. Isn't that the same as an athlete getting a reward for winning first?

Reggie · 1:09:22
Perhaps.

Tim · 1:09:22
If you're first in the market and you get the market share, that's a reward for being first. We've incentivized the game.

Mary · 1:09:31
Yeah. But if you get there first and nobody gives a shit, you don't get any advantage. So I don't think it's about getting there first. I think it's about finding a new angle that people wanted. It's about celebration and pushing the human and spirit to new heights and discovering ourselves and figuring out who we are in this big crazy universe. And if we could think of it that way, you can see the competition for what it is.

Tim · 1:09:55
Are you saying that— It's a game.

Mary · 1:09:56
It's play. We're playing with ourselves.

Reggie · 1:09:59
No, we're playing with other people. We're touching our business. We're touching our business.

Linsey · 1:10:01
We're touching our business.

Reggie · 1:10:02
I do think there is something to be said about trying to come up with an idea that people can idolize because there's nothing else like it. They haven't seen it.

Tim · 1:10:12
Really, you haven't seen it yet.

Reggie · 1:10:13
Yeah, you haven't seen it yet. So it feels new, and you— and then it spirals because then the people that are seeing it for the first time want to be the ones to say, hey, I discovered this thing. I'm the first person to see this cool thing that these guys came up with, or this new brand, or this new, you know, deodorant, or whatever it is. You're like—

Tim · 1:10:34
Even from brand to deodorant.

Reggie · 1:10:35
I'm the first person to use this, you know, like, oh, what do you smell like? Oh yeah, I—

Tim · 1:10:40
You smell like it.

Reggie · 1:10:41
Yeah, I do. I think we, I think we're wired that way. But I think as business owners, we also are trying to come up and craft a new original idea because we want it to make us successful.

Tim · 1:10:51
Isn't that the hardest way to do it? I feel like the ideas that are so like—

Mary · 1:10:55
Well, it's a little bit. Advantage is also you have to educate everybody about what you're doing, and then you crack the door open and everybody floods in behind you.

Tim · 1:11:02
Yeah, there was this whole YouTube movement where they were teaching people you can own normal businesses like laundromats and other small car washes.

Reggie · 1:11:09
Deodorants.

Tim · 1:11:10
And one lady made a whole career—

Reggie · 1:11:12
Carpe ads.

Tim · 1:11:13
She made a whole career out of teaching people how you can make a really successful life out of owning these normal, non-original ideas.

Reggie · 1:11:20
Ideas like a laundromat.

Tim · 1:11:21
Right, like a laundromat or a car wash. And so I'm, I'm, I'm wondering if we've idolized being original.

Reggie · 1:11:29
We can get 40 Harts Laundromat and have 40 washrooms.

Tim · 1:11:32
Focus on the topic, Reggie.

Reggie · 1:11:34
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm just—

Tim · 1:11:35
No, because this, this comes into music. And music too, we've idolized the musician who can evoke an original emotion and song, but we've lost what music used to be in culture. Music used to be a relational family coming together, singing around the piano or around the fire originally, and it was a cultural way of keeping stories and keeping the culture alive.

Reggie · 1:12:00
Absolutely.

Tim · 1:12:00
And now we find people are like, I wrote this song and it uses this and does this and it's so original. Like, that's our idolization of originality.

Mary · 1:12:07
Can I?

Reggie · 1:12:08
Oh yeah, because you're going to.

Mary · 1:12:11
I'm gonna. You can't stop me.

Tim · 1:12:13
No, don't even ask.

Mary · 1:12:14
So sue me, but I think I worship the Creator. Abstract that for a minute. When a lot of people hear that, they think I worship the Christian God.

Reggie · 1:12:26
Right.

Mary · 1:12:27
Ignore that part. I worship the Creator. I am the creator. I create things. And so you say to me, we've idolized originality. I can hear your point, and it's well taken. I think there was a function for music in society, and it does have to do with relationship and culture and history, and we've lost a lot of that, and we ought to reclaim it. And I say reclaim because it was stolen from us.

Linsey · 1:12:53
Mm-hmm.

Mary · 1:12:54
But that's for another podcast. I think that originality is an expression of the divine. I think, what, what brought you there? What a wild, chaotic multiverse of opportunity collided to create that thing that you just made?

Linsey · 1:13:12
Mm-hmm.

Mary · 1:13:13
And so I think that is, to me, worth— I won't say idolizing— worth attention and love and care. Now, why are you doing it becomes the next question.

Reggie · 1:13:23
Yeah.

Tim · 1:13:24
But think about how your process suffers if all you worship is originality, because babies come out and they copy us. That is how they grow. When I first—

Mary · 1:13:33
But a baby is original from day one.

Tim · 1:13:35
Totally. But they learn literally how to do things by copying other people. When I was first writing music, I was struggling to write a song, and I was in the church and doing worship music, and I hated certain styles. styles of worship music. Like, I just despise them. They're so cheesy. You know, I was a teenager and I had all my notions.

Mary · 1:13:55
You're hella relatable right now.

Tim · 1:13:56
So literally, I gave— I remember the moment I gave up and I said, fine, I'm gonna write a cheesy Christian song. Ooh, people love that. It was called Creatures of Praise, and it went over like nobody's business. And then I wrote another cheesy song, and then another cheesy song, and all of a sudden I started writing less cheesy songs. It's like I let myself be cheesy and be a copycat. And I began to let myself find—

Reggie · 1:14:24
Found your originality through the copy.

Tim · 1:14:25
I had been worshiping the originality. I had been trying to write songs like this or that or Radiohead or Dave Matthews Band or all these things. And all of a sudden I was like, this is where I am. This is what these people want. And I just started making the thing I never wanted to be known for. It was the weirdest mind shift. shift. And it led me to originality because now I can sing spontaneously and not even care about the song. So I'm in such an abstraction of originality.

Linsey · 1:14:51
Kind of a similar path.

Tim · 1:14:52
Yeah. Do you feel that path?

Mary · 1:14:53
Yeah.

Tim · 1:14:53
And so I feel like when we idolize originality, we prevent the growth process because people are like so hard on themselves. I gotta be original. Oh, they did that already. They already had that idea. And they start like cramping down so hard they can't breathe, and then they don't come into their originality.

Mary · 1:15:07
It's a growing You were so attuned to what else was out there and so self-critical about the thing that you had access to in that moment that you, in many ways, by trying to be original versus what was around you, cut yourself off from it.

Tim · 1:15:23
Exactly.

Mary · 1:15:23
But I would say that's a function of like social dynamic and self-hatred maybe.

Reggie · 1:15:28
I think there's something else at play too, and I think it's a common path for people is when you actually copy other other people, you start to— you're sort of honing your skill.

Tim · 1:15:37
Practicing.

Reggie · 1:15:38
Yeah, you're practicing, you're honing your skill. And then once you have a solid foundation of how to actually make a song, whether it's a cheesy song that you don't really like, that foundation allows you to then now explore your originality.

Tim · 1:15:50
Yeah, I mean, case in point, Justin Bieber's new album.

Reggie · 1:15:52
Yeah, totally.

Tim · 1:15:53
This is the second time I brought this up because I'm amazed by it. He made the most pop-formulated songs for I don't know how many years, and all of a sudden he comes out with this album that's It's like so inspired by everything I love, but completely originally him.

Reggie · 1:16:05
Yeah, it's not—

Tim · 1:16:06
It's the weirdest thing. So we have to go allow ourselves to go down that path. And I think I like what you were saying about it was like a— I was afraid of people seeing me, so I was trying to be original, and it was almost as if it was an exterior. I looked original versus being myself, even if that felt like a copy to me.

Reggie · 1:16:25
So there is a pressing question. Where can we find all those cheesy songs that you made?

Linsey · 1:16:31
Yes.

Tim · 1:16:32
You know, they are probably in my mom's bootleg drawer. She was recording stuff all the time. My dad too.

Reggie · 1:16:40
Guys, this has been a wonderful conversation.

Tim · 1:16:43
It has been.

Reggie · 1:16:44
Yeah. I mean, we could probably talk forever. Linsey, thanks for joining us.

Linsey · 1:16:50
Thanks for having me.

Reggie · 1:16:51
Absolutely. I want to give a shout out to Shout out to Ricky and Will for keeping us, keeping us tech solid.

Tim · 1:16:57
And for that phone alarm that went off.

Reggie · 1:16:59
Yeah. Oh man, you're not supposed to call it out.

Tim · 1:17:03
Just kidding. Um, this is all about showing the real.

Mary · 1:17:06
We got our rhythm. Rhythm? Razzm?

Reggie · 1:17:08
Rhythm.

Mary · 1:17:09
What would the children say right now?

Reggie · 1:17:10
Where are you going?

Linsey · 1:17:11
Razzm.

Mary · 1:17:12
I'm saying we gotta tease him because he's about to leave.

Reggie · 1:17:14
Oh, razzm.

Mary · 1:17:15
We gotta razzm. We gotta razzm.

Reggie · 1:17:18
We gotta rizzm my B.

Tim · 1:17:19
We only have Will for one more week.

Mary · 1:17:23
Is that true?

Reggie · 1:17:24
One more week.

Tim · 1:17:25
One more week and then we'll—

Linsey · 1:17:25
Where are you going?

Mary · 1:17:26
Kiss him off to Charlotte.

Linsey · 1:17:28
Oh, wow.

Reggie · 1:17:29
Yeah.

Mary · 1:17:30
Bigger and better things, you know.

Reggie · 1:17:32
I feel like we want to get Will over here and give him a hug. Or should we do that next week?

Mary · 1:17:36
No hug for you this week.

Tim · 1:17:37
No hugs. You're off hugs.

Reggie · 1:17:40
You have to wait until next week. All right. Thank you for taking, taking, you know, this is a Obviously, we know this is a long show, so the fact that you've made it this far, the fact that you actually are here listening to us means a lot to us. And, um, we'd also love for you to engage, so add some comments if you like it. If there's something— if you have thoughts about idolatry, yeah, hit us up in the comments. We'd love to engage with you. And until our next episode, we'll see you next time.

Linsey · 1:18:13
Bye.

Reggie · 1:18:13
Bye.

Mary · 1:18:14
Man, oh man.

Reggie · 1:18:16
That was fun.

Mary · 1:18:17
You pulled that word and I was like, I've been waiting a year. I was like,